What's It Take?

[jkdjeff]

Yeah. Speaking as nowhere near Olympic level, but as someone who's wrestled and done martial arts in the past; fencing is right up there with those two things as far as the level of athleticism it takes.

I can't speak to gymnastics, not having had any experience with it.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by C.I.C.

That's ridiculous! Using that reasoning, no one here who hasn't personally made an Olympic fencing team should be offering any advice at all on the subject.

I am not arguing whether it is ridiculous or not, or whether someone who's not made it can give sound advice, I am merely pointing out that your reading of her post was not as accurate as you intended in your response to Sabresque.

Anyone, anyone, can look at the records and see that a "U" rated fencer has virtually no chance of winning a spot on the 2012 U.S. Olympic team.

That's why she didn't ask whether you thought she was going to make it, but what it would take to make it. She also specified that she was interested in advice from people who'd made it, or where going to make it. Not only did you not give her any advice (which was unsolicited, since you don't fall into any of these categories), but you made it pretty clear that her attempts were going to fail, even though you knew nothing about her. Pretty negative stuff, don't you think?

Virtually no chance of making the Olympics doesn't mean it is impossible. Pretty much everyone has virtually no chance of making it to the Olympics as a fencer. Whether they are Us or As is largely irrelevant.

[C.I.C.]

Originally Posted by veeco

I am not arguing whether it is ridiculous or not, or whether someone who's not made it can give sound advice, I am merely pointing out that your reading of her post was not as accurate as you intended in your response to Sabresque.

This is getting tedious.
AF's initial post was just three sentences:
"It's a brand new year, and I would guess most of us are going to be tuned to the Olympics. For those of us average fencers, (yes, me) who want to get there, in say 2012 or 2016, what will it take? How are those of you who are making it doing it?"

If you insist on fixating on that last sentence only, then none of us should have responded to her query; not me, and not you.

But I was responding to her second sentence, and ONLY that sentence, when I wrote "Realistically, as an "average fencer," your chances for making it in 2012 are probably zero."
I didn't say anything about her chances of making the 2016 Olympics, or beyond!

Originally Posted by veeco

That's why she didn't ask whether you thought she was going to make it, but what it would take to make it. She also specified that she was interested in advice from people who'd made it, or where going to make it.

See my "fixating" comment above.

Originally Posted by veeco

Not only did you not give her any advice (which was unsolicited, since you don't fall into any of these categories), but you made it pretty clear that her attempts were going to fail, even though you knew nothing about her. Pretty negative stuff, don't you think?

The advice she's received from me, and many others here, is that 2012 is an unrealistic goal, and that she should set her sights on 2016 or later.

Originally Posted by veeco

Virtually no chance of making the Olympics doesn't mean it is impossible. Pretty much everyone has virtually no chance of making it to the Olympics as a fencer. Whether they are Us or As is largely irrelevant.

Really? I'd say someone who is an "A" right now has a significantly better chance at being on the 2012 Olympics team than someone who is a "U" right now.

Let's reconvene when the 2012 teams are announced and see how many team members were rated "U" in the 2007-08 season and how many were "A"s.
But wait, we can do that this season; we can see how many of the 2008 team members were "U"s in the 2003-04 season!

[Applesauce and Foils]

This thread has turned out to be a drag to read.

Thanks for everyone's helpful advice, no matter who you are.

BYE!

AF

[veeco]

Originally Posted by C.I.C.

If you insist on fixating on that last sentence only, then none of us should have responded to her query; not me, and not you.

And I didn't offer any advice. On that point, though, I suspect Sabresque is closer to getting to the Olympics than any other person who offered their "advice" on this thread.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Warrior Princess

I'm a bear

I thought you were female, and straight?

[BenTheEMOP]

I have some ideas on the original poster's question, though I am not an Olympian. I'd be curious to hear what other think of these ideas.

First a reading list:

1. The Rules

If you want to compete, especially at a high level, you should get familiar with the rules, especially for the weapon you want to fence. This site and my own experience is full of examples of why knowing the rules is important. Beyond the obvious, one way this can help you improve your fencing is by giving you the opportunity to referee and learn howdirectors think.

2. Running with Swords, by Sherraine McKay

This is the autobiography of an epee fencer from Canada who did make it. It gives some clues about what it takes. It also gives a realistic picture about what Durando was talking about earlier - what does life look like after the Olympics, and even what life looks like before.

3. Harnessing Anger, by Peter Westbrook

This is another Olympian who made it. it is different kinds of struggles, but reading both might give you the idea that there is no one path to the Olympics.

(Does anyone know a good foilist autobiography? I only have a Sabrist and Epeeist here.)

4. Awaken the Olympian Within, Edited by John Naber

This is a collection of Olympians giving their advice on how to be successful in life. There are some good essays in here about goal setting, strategies, and the Olympic experience. It is another example of there being many paths to the Olympics and most of them are rough.

5. The New Toughness Training for Sports, by James Loehr

This is an interesting book about mental preparation. It has some material specifically designed for younger athletes. It was recommended by my coach. You can get some good things out of just reading it, but if you actually go through the exercises, you'll probably get much more.

6. Your Notebook, by You

This is perhaps the most important book because it gives you a place to track your progress, do thought experiments, and keep track of everything when you can't take it all in at once. You need to keep it up and review it periodically. Sometimes you make a note after a lesson for example, or a bought, and then you go back and look again and have an Ah Ha moment.

I have more on my shelves, but these are ones I have read that I think might be off benefit to the original poster.

[BenTheEMOP]

To continue with my ramble about what I think might be useful, let me add a few thoughts on fencing training.

The fencers here are right. You need a good coach to become a better fencer. In fact to go all the way, you will probably need more than one.

You need to be a partner to your coach and communicate with him or her, make sure you understand both the coach's teaching style and your learning style, and make sure you are asking for and getting what you need. As you progress, you may at some point need to change coaches. Be upfront and honest about it and it will make life better and easier. Don't be a jerk by suddenly switching clubs or coaches without a word.

You will also need to coach yourself by riding herd on yourself and paying attention to your results. You are the one that needs to make sure you show up for practice, maintain your equipment, and go do conditioning instead of going out for a good time.

The number of ways coaches and students work together is very large, you need to find the one that works for you. So, you'll need to be persistent.

[BenTheEMOP]

You will need to find opportunities to train and compete. Both inside and outside of your club.

You need to figure out the right mix of conditioning, drills, and bouting that you need to do. You need to figure out who in the club will help you improve and who will waste your time.

It is the same with competing, plus some. Your goals are all about competition, so you need to pay attention to what works, what successful people are doing, and what you are doing. You don't need to ape everything the winner does, that won't work for you, but you do have to try to find the essence of what differentiates them from the rest.

You need to have goals. Posters here are right -- the Olympic is a long-term, super high goal. You need a lot of intermediate goals that will help you. You need to constantly assess where you are at and push yourself a little beyond that. (There was a great article in Scientific American a little over a year ago about this. If I can find the reference I will post it.)

Also, make sure that your practice and competition time is quality time. There was a time when I fenced five days a week at two different clubs and never got any better. The reasons were that the fencing I did at one place was only with people at or below my level, so I didn't learn anything from them. The fencing I did at the other place was with people so far beyond me that I just lost and wondered what happened. At the time, I wasn't even a sophisticated enough fencer to understand their explanations on why I lost.

It was when I found a couple of friends who were near my level and we started drilling and working together systematically that I improved. it also demonstrated to others that we were serious about our fencing and worth spending time with, which can make a big difference. Also, having comrades in arms makes things more fun, especially when you struggle and succeed together.

Two more thoughts, and I am done.

I one Olympian who did Judo. Her advice was to judoka who wanted to improve was to have a lot of people look at your judo. It is the same with fencing. you need a lot of people to look at it, so it is worth asking people at competitions and at the club what they see in your fencing. It is worth going to seminars. These people don't take the place of you coach, but they can provide useful advice ad maybe give your coach more material to work with when you check back in with him or her after a competition for example. Also, sometimes they can say something to you that you have heard a million times before but just need to hear a certain way in order to really get it. One time a fellow fencer told me "You don't know backwards." Her saying that for some reason put it in my head I needed to learn what retreating meant from a strategic annd tactical point of view and not just as an element of footwork.

Finally, I think the fencers here who said this above were right -- you have to have fun, otherwise what's the point?

[remise]

I know of a fencer who started at aged 6, and by early teens showed a lot of promise, and was rated high enough ("B") to make a serious attempt. Talent, good coaching, all of the things other posters mentioned. However, as one poster here mentioned, there was the 'money' thing. By mid-teens, the money dried up, and so did any hope of going to the Olympics...which is a shame, because I think this person could have put forth a serious attempt.

[Applesauce and Foils]

Thanks for such a helpful post, Ben. I'll definitely keep all those tips in mind and check out those books! Really. Those were wonderful tips.

AF

[Grasshopper]

Ask Dan Kellner.

Or if you want to know how to escape when you're hung by your ankles by the Vietcong and a hungry rat in a bag is put over your head, ask Chuck Norris.

[p1nkp4nther]

Originally Posted by posternutbag

...
Neither fencing nor sailing require a high level of fitness.

...

WOW, I simply don't agree with that point. At Olympic/International level fitness can make all the difference.

Personally I believe the following to be very important in such a "quest"

1) good coach
2) being adaptable (being able to change and adapt your training as well as being able to cope with challenging circumstances)
3) effective goal-setting (setting and achieving short, medium and long term goals)
4) determination (being able to do what needs to be done without compromising your personal values/ethics)
5) personal journal (most achievers have a personal journal - don't underestimate the value of this)

Best of luck!! Hope you have a blessed journey.

[500gms]

Originally Posted by C.I.C.

Anyone, anyone, can look at the records and see that a "U" rated fencer has virtually no chance of winning a spot on the 2012 U.S. Olympic team.

There is a young lady who is presently an A-2008 on the cadet and Jr points list that was a "U" fencer less than 1 yr ago. She started fencing in Nov of 2006, finished in the top 32 of the cadets at SN in 2006 (she got her D), didn't do much during the summer, never went to Albequerque or Dallas, competed in Atlanta finished in top 16 in jrs and got her "B". Went to the J.O's and made 16 in Cadets and then finished in top 8 in Jrs. and won her "A"!
She's been fencing off and on for 1 1/2 yrs . she's been competing for 9 mos. has had 3 coaches, sort of belonged to 2 clubs and has only recently begun to train on a high level. She's 17 and still in HS. Do you think she could contend to make the Olympic team in 2012?

[seven6ty]

There is a young lady who is presently an A-2008 on the cadet and Jr points list that was a "U" fencer less than 1 yr ago. She started fencing in Nov of 2006, finished in the top 32 of the cadets at SN in 2006 (she got her D), didn't do much during the summer, never went to Albequerque or Dallas, competed in Atlanta finished in top 16 in jrs and got her "B". Went to the J.O's and made 16 in Cadets and then finished in top 8 in Jrs. and won her "A"!
She's been fencing off and on for 1 1/2 yrs . she's been competing for 9 mos. has had 3 coaches, sort of belonged to 2 clubs and has only recently begun to train on a high level. She's 17 and still in HS. Do you think she could contend to make the Olympic team in 2012?

Anything is possible, but realistically, no. The Olympics are far, far away from the US under 17 circuit.

[C.I.C.]

Originally Posted by 500gms

There is a young lady who is presently an A-2008 on the cadet and Jr points list that was a "U" fencer less than 1 yr ago. She started fencing in Nov of 2006, finished in the top 32 of the cadets at SN in 2006 (she got her D), didn't do much during the summer, never went to Albequerque or Dallas, competed in Atlanta finished in top 16 in jrs and got her "B". Went to the J.O's and made 16 in Cadets and then finished in top 8 in Jrs. and won her "A"!
She's been fencing off and on for 1 1/2 yrs . she's been competing for 9 mos. has had 3 coaches, sort of belonged to 2 clubs and has only recently begun to train on a high level. She's 17 and still in HS. Do you think she could contend to make the Olympic team in 2012?

Somethings not right here...
- How could she make the 32 at the 2006 Summer Nationals if she didn't start fencing until November of 2006? Perhaps you mean the most recent Summer Nationals in July 2007? That would be about 1 1/2 years from November 2006 to now.
- Then the "Atlanta" would have to be this season's Div I/Jr. this January, but there was no "Albuquerque" this season. Perhaps you meant Tucson?

I can see who she is, and she's off to an excellent start. But 17th in the Cadet rolling points and 31st in the Junior are just that; a start.
The aspiring 2012 Olympic team members will need to continue to move up those points standings with each successive year, and that will require participation in most (if not all) the national events - Cadet, Junior and Div 1 - and continued successes at those events.
Additionally she will need to travel to foreign competitions and be successful at them as well. There's no way she will accumulate sufficient national points to make the top four in the U.S. without significant international points.

[500gms]

Originally Posted by C.I.C.

Somethings not right here...
- How could she make the 32 at the 2006 Summer Nationals if she didn't start fencing until November of 2006? Perhaps you mean the most recent Summer Nationals in July 2007? That would be about 1 1/2 years from November 2006 to now.........

C.I.C. Yes I meant 2007 not 06 and Tucson not Albuquerque... Still, 1 1/2 yrs and she's 31st on the Jr. RPL She's attended 2 jr. NACs and finished top 16 in one and medaled in the other.

My point is "what it takes" to get to the 2012 or 2016 Olympics if you're basically a beginner and a "U" fencer now is: a HUGE amount of natural talent, a few breaks (the top three competitors were not at the JOs) top flight coaching, daily training partners of equal or more advanced abilities, knowlegable advisors, a willingness to persevere, co-operative parents, and MONEY, lots and lots of MONEY.

Most of these essentials are beyond almost all beginners. However, if you're lucky, have the God given ability and you're willing to work very, very hard............
The above mentioned young lady bears watching because she just might be capable of making the 2012 or 2016 team. She now has the coaching, the teammates, the advisors and the parents on board and maybe the money. She certainly has the talent. Does she have the determination and luck? I guess time will tell.

[Applesauce and Foils]

Thanks to everyone who's posted recently, even though I haven't been around.

AF

[bjacobs]

This seems like the thread for nitpicky statements, so let me throw mine in. On fitness: I do happen to know quite a few Olympic and potential Olympic fencers. I've fenced in the past with a bunch of these people. They tend to be fit, certainly...some of them VERY fit. And this matters.

But I don't think many of these internationally successful athletes compare in fitness with the average NCAA Div I wrestler. For that matter, I wouldn't bet on the majority of top international fencers comparing in fitness with top high school wrestlers. The sports and their requirements are different. The practices are run in different ways. And this is true for a number of sports, like swimming, boxing, hockey, etc.

There are other sports that require less fitness than fencing. But fencing isn't top tier when it comes to either fitness requirements or the fitness of its athletes. There are of course individual exceptions, and if this post offended you, don't worry, I'm sure you happen to be one of those exceptions.

[p1nkp4nther]

Originally Posted by bjacobs

...

But I don't think many of these internationally successful athletes compare in fitness with the average NCAA Div I wrestler. For that matter, I wouldn't bet on the majority of top international fencers comparing in fitness with top high school wrestlers.

...

My question is:
How do you think a fit wrestler will feel after 10 minutes of fencing (provided he fence by prop