high school tournaments

[fencingfrog]

hi people,

i was at a high school varsity tournament yesterday, and it seemed extremeley casual. there was no weight testing or anything! the refs were ok otherwise, but i thought for sure they would do what (i thought) was standard procedure.

is there a reason for this? are all hs tournaments like this one?

(the only other one i've done is the state champs 2 years ago and i don't remember how it was done there)

[Cookeit]

We don't do weight/shim testing at my high school conference meets.
It would just take too frikkin' long, our invites already go from 9 AM to about 7 PM.

[Phincer]

Originally Posted by Cookeit

We don't do weight/shim testing at my high school conference meets.
It would just take too frikkin' long, our invites already go from 9 AM to about 7 PM.

Since we don't have HS fencing, I'm curious-and have a few questions.

Are these team or individual events or both?
Do you award USFA ratings? I imagine not, correct? Just fencing for the glory of the school?
What are the sizes of your events? More than 100 fencers in each weapon?
Do you do mask safety checks?
Are these tournaments run by students or faculty/parent/volunteer?

General comment-sorry, but weights and shims should be required-one of the first things I learned in weapons maintenance was how easy it was to adjust the tip.
..although...
If no weights or shim tests are being done, does everyone do illegal adjustments? I imagine if everyone isn't legal the playing field is level.

[leftyboy]

In my experience of NJ, it seems like a large part, not all, is half-assed and second hand. Because it is not USFA, it is a more relaxed atmosphere. Most of the teams are not made up of USFA fencers, although I think this might change soon. I have seen some of the worst refereeing in HS.

Does any of this make it bad? No. Just different from anything USFA. You can't make a comparison when one is intentionally different from the other.

[Cookeit]

Originally Posted by Phincer

Since we don't have HS fencing, I'm curious-and have a few questions.

Are these team or individual events or both?

Both, but only one type for the given tournament.

Originally Posted by Phincer

Do you award USFA ratings? I imagine not, correct? Just fencing for the glory of the school?

No.

Originally Posted by Phincer

What are the sizes of your events? More than 100 fencers in each weapon?

It is usually around 55-70.

Originally Posted by Phincer

Do you do mask safety checks?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Phincer

Are these tournaments run by students or faculty/parent/volunteer?

They are run by the coaches at the school where the invite is being held.

Originally Posted by Phincer

If no weights or shim tests are being done, does everyone do illegal adjustments? I imagine if everyone isn't legal the playing field is level.

I really doubt people are making illegal adjustments. I know that on my team, aside from the armorers, I am one of the very few who actually know how the equipment works and how to make said adjustments. But I don't because it would just impair my fencing ability as I grow.

I feel that is the case for other schools too. While they certainly could cheat, I really doubt they are.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Cookeit

While they certainly could cheat, I really doubt they are.

Kind of like how HS athletes would never use steroids?

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

there was no weight testing or anything! the refs were ok otherwise, but i thought for sure they would do what (i thought) was standard procedure.

When I was fencing in high school, weight testing wasn't really done. Schools were lucky to have enough working blades to get enough people fencing in a meet without other requirements for blades.


Sometimes we'd go to schools to fence and the two schools would have to share blades, bodycords, or even lamés.

Originally Posted by Phincer

Since we don't have HS fencing, I'm curious-and have a few questions.

Are these team or individual events or both?

There are both in CT.

Originally Posted by Phincer

Do you award USFA ratings? I imagine not, correct? Just fencing for the glory of the school?

No USFA right now. Most of the good fencers are members of the USFA, but the majority of fencers are not.

Originally Posted by Phincer

What are the sizes of your events? More than 100 fencers in each weapon?

The novice, JV, and varsity championships each had a total of about 150 fencers (for men's and women's foil). Epee was not sizable when I was there (maybe 50 total, and only a state championship), but I understand that it has grown significantly over the last year and a half.

Originally Posted by Phincer

Do you do mask safety checks?

No. There's no time for it, not enough masks for it, and honestly no one who's knowledgeable enough to check them. It's up to the coaches to make sure that their fencers have safe, working equipment. Occasionally you see a mask that is clearly from the late 80s that was dug out of a closet somewhere. It's not a decision I would make, but the fencers' safety is the coach's responsibility in high school.

Honestly, though, I don't know if it would be possible or practical to implement a mask check. You'd have to ask someone more involved with the coaches.

Originally Posted by Phincer

Are these tournaments run by students or faculty/parent/volunteer?

It depends. The novice tournament has recently been run by students, JV by local coaches and volunteers, and the state championships by an actual BC team.

Originally Posted by Phincer

General comment-sorry, but weights and shims should be required-one of the first things I learned in weapons maintenance was how easy it was to adjust the tip.
..although...
If no weights or shim tests are being done, does everyone do illegal adjustments? I imagine if everyone isn't legal the playing field is level.

No.

First off, weights are occasionally tested, so any team who cheats is risking being down several blades when they get to a team who does.

Second, if someone wants to cheat, there's really no way to stop them. There are ways to cheat at nearly any level of fencing, it's just a matter of how much effort you put into it.

Third, though there's a lot of competition, there's also a lot of friendship in between fencers and teams. If we're at an outside competition, we'll often cheer each other on or even coach each other. Of course, once we get back in state, it's back to intense competition, but I'd like to think that the teams are close enough to trust each other not to cheat.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by HDG

Kind of like how HS athletes would never use steroids?

This is fencing. No one's getting checked out by NBA, or even NCAA scouts. The stakes are much lower, and the sport is much smaller. In Connecticut, at least, there are around 20 fencing teams. If someone cheats, everyone's going to know about it.

[fencingfrog]

wow, cookeit you are amazing you know everything!
this tournament was small, but it wasn't the champs so that's explainable. and of course maybe the major ice storm that was on its way affected that :P
i saw a lot of lame/blade/cord sharing going on too. it was interesting and sort of funny to someone who owns thier own stuff.

[AndrewH]

In NJ, weights are shims are being tested at all dual meets and tournaments (i.e. Santelli, Cetrulo, state squads & individuals). It didn't used to be that way, but after an unfortunate incident it was deemed necessary.

[500gms]

see:Discussion of High School Fencing

[rsy]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

In NJ, weights are shims are being tested at all dual meets and tournaments (i.e. Santelli, Cetrulo, state squads & individuals). It didn't used to be that way, but after an unfortunate incident it was deemed necessary.

And now that everyone knows that weights and shims will be tested, the failure rates are generally that which you would exepect to find at a USFA division event.

-r

[foildad]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

hi people,

i was at a high school varsity tournament yesterday, and it seemed extremeley casual. there was no weight testing or anything! the refs were ok otherwise, but i thought for sure they would do what (i thought) was standard procedure...

I was at Cadet Designated B (you know, where an American can earn 700 US cadet points if they win) recently that was run under the same testing conditions.

Not only that, as the sun was going down glare coming through a window forced a competitor to cover the top 2 inches of the mesh of his mask with duct tape to block the glare. The director refused to change strips or delay the bout. When one fencer reached 8, the director had them reverse positions.

Then they had strip problems and by the time those were fixed the sun had gone down.

Watching the US coach handle the situation was, uhm, enlightening.

[davesaint]

Originally Posted by Phincer

Since we don't have HS fencing, I'm curious-and have a few questions.

Are these team or individual events or both?
Do you award USFA ratings? I imagine not, correct? Just fencing for the glory of the school?
What are the sizes of your events? More than 100 fencers in each weapon?
Do you do mask safety checks?
Are these tournaments run by students or faculty/parent/volunteer?

General comment-sorry, but weights and shims should be required-one of the first things I learned in weapons maintenance was how easy it was to adjust the tip.
..although...
If no weights or shim tests are being done, does everyone do illegal adjustments? I imagine if everyone isn't legal the playing field is level.

In the confrence that Cookiet is fencing in, specifically they do not check weights and shim predominately due to the equipment being used. About 80% of the fencers use equipment provided by the schools in order to fence. Much of the equipment, while in decent shape, is pretty old. The mask checks are done for safety reasons. USFA ratings are not granted at these events. The last large tournament held was 2 weeks ago, and there were about 360 fencers fencing in 1 day with about 28 or so strips.


Dave

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by davesaint

About 80% of the fencers use equipment provided by the schools in order to fence.

Maybe I'm missing something. Why is this a justification for not testing?

My team provides all equipment for our fencers. Better believe that we expect it to be tested at meets.

-B

[Purple Fencer]

In the SoCal league, all fencers must join the USFA (for insurance purposes, I believe), but none of the tournaments are USFA sanctioned, so no ratings are awarded (although those ALREADY in place ARE used in initial seeding)

We ALWAYS test masks (I have yet to be at a tourney where the masks weren't punched, in any division where I've fenced or worke).

Weight and shim testing IS done, but is a weapon fails, it is simply held by teh director until the bout is over -- with no card being issued...I end up seeing a lot of people who have the usual problems.

[whtouche]

I referee alot of highschool fencing meets (in fact when I'm on winter break, doing so represents almost all of my income for the 5 or so week period I'm at home) and weights and shims are not always checked. I don't think concerns about cheating are that serious tho, because correct me if I'm wrong, but unless you un-modified the weapons, they would then fail inspections at USFA tournaments, right? Seems like a big hassle to have weapons you could only use at highschool tournaments, and at that only some of them to boot.

I mean, plenty of that equipment would probably fail normal inspections, but I think that is due overwhelmingly to wear and tear rather than intentional tampering

[MyrddinsPrecint]

In my experience, high school conferences add or take away whatever rules make it easiest for them that day to hold a decent competition and convince the school it's something that won't kill children.

Sometimes weights and shims aren't checked, sometimes they are. Sometimes masks aren't checked, sometimes they are. Sometimes buckles on the outside of lames are legal, sometimes they aren't.

Y'know, whatever works.......

[rsy]

Originally Posted by davesaint

In the confrence that Cookiet is fencing in, specifically they do not check weights and shim predominately due to the equipment being used. About 80% of the fencers use equipment provided by the schools in order to fence.

In NJ HS competitions most of the equipment is provided by the schools and they have to pass weight and shim tests. Making sure that the epee and foil blades pass is the result of an investment of time more than an investment of money. At my son's high school, the day before a big tournament the team checks all the equipment together and several parents, acting as armorers, help with any repairs. If your conference required that all blades pass foil & shim tests, then they would, and I think it is unlikely any team would cancel its program as a result.

-r