high school tournaments

[randomsabreur]

90% of competitions in the UK don't use shims and weights. When I get forced to referee silly pointy stuff, I'm always convinced I'm going to drop the weight on my foot.

I doubt that many people cheat - you don't get wholesale failures that often, even when you spring testing on people in the later rounds.

That said, I got a red card for 2 failed weapons at my first competition that did weight tests. Everything was tested before I first used it, first weapon failed mid poule (didn't think to test after fights, and it hadn't been "close" to failing in earlier fights), second weapon (completely unused since I tested it on arrival at the competition (admittedly in colder of 2 halls)) was too light when I switched to it. Spent a while frantically begging team mates for a foil so I could continue.

Silly pointy sticks!

[Wafath]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

In NJ, weights are shims are being tested at all dual meets and tournaments (i.e. Santelli, Cetrulo, state squads & individuals). It didn't used to be that way, but after an unfortunate incident it was deemed necessary.

What accident could have been prevented by weight & shim tests? Or were they also not doing epee tip-screw checks before bouts?

W

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Wafath

What accident could have been prevented by weight & shim tests? Or were they also not doing epee tip-screw checks before bouts?

Incident, not accident.

Accusations being hurled about team X cooking their pressure springs to make them lighter, etc. LOTS of claims of cheating where simple neglect, incompetence, or lack of care would easily explain everything.

Hint: just because a school has lots of weapons that fail inspections when those inspections are unplanned doesn't mean that they were cheating. But good luck trying to convince hundreds of fencers from other schools of that fact.

-B
*who wasn't in any way involved with the incident(s)*

[keeper of the swords]

I maintain the weapons for one of the Chicago area HS teams (and any of the fencers' personal weapons, if they ask...). I understand the expedience in NOT testing weapons during pools; how much delay would be caused to check in the DE's (especially if we ignore cards for non-passing weapons (get a new one that works...))? I am continually amazed/amused to see fencers at the armorer's table with non- functioning weapons BEFORE the event starts!
At the JV meet Sat I had a student referee tell our fencers at his strip that our weapons were requiring "too much force" to depress the tip. Naturally, my fencers are questioning their weapons. When I asked the director if he had ever seen epee shims, he had not, nor had he ever actually weight tested a weapon!
Now that I've complained--
Suggestions
1) leave it as it is- the stakes are too small. It is unlikely that intentional rigging of equipment is happening.
2) OR, test at DE's(round of 32,16, whatever) Have all member schools provide a set of weights and shims. (provide instruction to student refs on how to perform test at strip)
3) armoring seminars for all member schools (require each school to have an individual capable of basic weapon maintenance)

[Don Badowski]

I'm an assistant coach in the Great Lakes HS Conference, and prior to that I did a lot of reffing for these teams. At first I was shocked that no one tested weapons. But as time went on:

• Safety is the first priority. Most of the tourns have mask check. The refs are instructed to check for underarm protectors. I learned that the kids lie. For example, this happened to me when I was directing back in '98...
  Ref: You have your underarm protector on?
  Kid: Yeah.
  Ref: Can I see it?
  Kid: What?
  Ref: Would you please unzip your jacket so I can see your underarm protector?
  Kid: Oh, I don't have one.
  Ref: You just said you had it on.
  Kid: I thought you meant did I have one. It's in my bag.
  Ref: A whole lot of good it does you in the bag, right?
  Kid: Uh...
  Ref: I believe you. Please go put it on and show me.
  Two minutes later...
  Kid: Uh, I can't find it.
  Ref: You can't find the protector that you said you had on but was really still in your bag?
  Kid: Uh...
  Ref: Go get your coach.
  Coach (annoyed): You know, this is the first time I had a director telling me my kids have to have the underarm protectors on.
  Ref: Yes? And?
  Coach: We don't have one that fits him.
  Ref: The equipment dealer is right over there.
  Coach: Are you kidding me?
  Ref: The rules for these tourns as explained to me were we let the weapons and body cords slide, but they have to be dressed properly. Now are you going to get him a protector or do we forefit the bouts? Your choice.
  Coach: Fine, I'll get him the protector, but I'm talking to the bout committee about this.
  Bout Committee: You did the right thing.
• Most of the HS kids know nothing about taking care the weapons assigned to them. They abuse them most samefully. Coaches spend most of their armory time just making sure that weapons and body cords don't keep bringing up the white light.
• Most of the refs don't know how to track down an equipment error, or even how to prevent one. At the last open tournment a fencer came running up to me, saying that one of his teammates had a ref that wouldn't let him change weapons. Why did he need to change? "He keeps getting an off target when he hits valid." I got there just in time to see the white light go on. I asked the ref if I could inspect the weapon (refs being more likely to say Yes to a coach than a HS fencer). I saw that the barrel of the foil had the tape falling off, causing grounding when hitting valid on the lame. I pointed out to the ref that the weapon was in violation of the rules, and he allowed the change.
  In the eight years I've been doing this, I've shown dozens of refs (usually college kids who used to fence in the HS meets) how to track down a problem from weapon, to body cord, to reel, etc.
• I've only had one epee fencer on our team say to me that since the "other" teams where using weapons that obviously (to him) didn't pass weight and shim, he wasn't going to bother keeping his weapons up to specs either. I explained to him that we don't do that, and getting touches with an up to specs weapon would make him a better fencer.
• Worst case. A few years back we had a terrific sabre fencer. He lost one bout all year. A final bout. He complained that his touches to his opponents mask where not bringing up a light, but when they tested, it turned on the light, and the ref would not allow the armorer to investigage. Despite this, he got the bout up to 14-14 when again he failed to bring up a light on a head cut. He lost. He called for the armorer again, this time with a coaches support. The ref relented. The armorer discovered that the opponents head cord was intermittent, and ordered that it be changed, no touche allowed. He lost the last touche fairly. Live and learn.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by whtouche

I referee alot of highschool fencing meets (in fact when I'm on winter break, doing so represents almost all of my income for the 5 or so week period I'm at home) and weights and shims are not always checked. I don't think concerns about cheating are that serious tho, because correct me if I'm wrong, but unless you un-modified the weapons, they would then fail inspections at USFA tournaments, right? Seems like a big hassle to have weapons you could only use at highschool tournaments, and at that only some of them to boot.

I mean, plenty of that equipment would probably fail normal inspections, but I think that is due overwhelmingly to wear and tear rather than intentional tampering

In fact, weights and shims are NEVER tested at Mass. High School events. There are advantages and disadvantages to this. The disadvantages are obvious: potential for cheating or simply equipment which, as whtouche says, fails due to wear and tear. The advantages are time savings and a more spectator friendly experience. At the USFA and NCAA levels, I'd say the disadvantages clearly outweigh the advantages and testing is clearly a required action (not to mention required by the rules of the governing body). At the HS level, it is far less clear.

We have fewer teams than NJ and have fortunately not yet had a need to require testing. I certainly hope that remains the case, but we are aware of the disadvantages and I could envision a situation where we decide testing is required.

I would like to disagree with whtouche, though, that plenty of the equipment would fail normal inspections. In order that our fencers have working equipment when they do go to USFA events, we do tend to keep them able to pass the tests. In fact, in my experience, most of the foils and epees I've seen in the state would pass testing easily (unlike some I've seen at USFA events where fencers fiddle with their weights and shims so that they pass as close to the line as possible).

-m

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Don Badowski

Ref: The rules for these tourns as explained to me were we let the weapons and body cords slide, but they have to be dressed properly. Now are you going to get him a protector or do we forefit the bouts? Your choice.
Coach: Fine, I'll get him the protector, but I'm talking to the bout committee about this.

That's when you tell the coach "I apologize...I'm SO sorry for 'forcing' your fencer to wear a piece of REQUIRED safety equipment that COULD save his life."

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Don Badowski

*SNIP*Great Annecdote (my version below)*SNIP*

[*]Most of the refs don't know how to track down an equipment error, or even how to prevent one. At the last open tournment a fencer came running up to me, saying that one of his teammates had a ref that wouldn't let him change weapons. Why did he need to change? "He keeps getting an off target when he hits valid." I got there just in time to see the white light go on. I asked the ref if I could inspect the weapon (refs being more likely to say Yes to a coach than a HS fencer). I saw that the barrel of the foil had the tape falling off, causing grounding when hitting valid on the lame. I pointed out to the ref that the weapon was in violation of the rules, and he allowed the change.

How does a poor taping job result in white lights for valid hits?

Okay, my plastron annecdote. Local USFA tournament, HS-aged fencer.

I ask to see his plastron.
Fencer: My what?
Me: Your plastron. Your underarm protector.
Fencer: Oh. It's in my bag. Do you want me to go get it?
Me: *lots of various thoughts that I probably shouldn't say out loud*
Me (finally): Yeah, that'd be a good idea.

-B

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

How does a poor taping job result in white lights for valid hits?

I was gonna say.....more likely teh lame had lot of dead spots or one of teh cords had a problem.

frankly, the ref thaty did not allow the change was harming the fencer...if he's landing right in the middle of the chest and it's showing off target, he needs to allow or even require a change if it's in teh weapon....the poor kid could be landing shots all day long and never get a point!

[Cookeit]

Originally Posted by Don Badowski

[*]Most of the HS kids know nothing about taking care the weapons assigned to them. They abuse them most samefully. Coaches spend most of their armory time just making sure that weapons and body cords don't keep bringing up the white light.

I agree with this sooooooooooo much.
I swear, for the JV team matches last Sat, we only had about 3 working weapons for the 10 people fencing.
And JV IS ONLY HALF THE TEAM!

[jeff]

Standards really vary... just last week I reffed across the NJ/NY state border, and specifically asked about equipment standards to test, and was told "Don't - if it works, we're happy". So, I didn't test weights (and the guys doing epee didn't test shims either).

OTOH, other places have well funded teams where a school can field boys and girls in all weapons, and have enough equipment for varsity and JV all at the SAME time. For those places, there's really no excuse for not checking all the equipment (many of those fencers compete in USFA anyway)

I know about the incident oiuyt referred to in NJ fencing, but only 2nd hand. To this day there are a lot of people who are convinced that the epee springs were deliberately altered (and in other events, other techniques used) in order to gain advantage. NJ takes its high school events pretty seriously - maybe too seriously - so feelings still run high. Checking the weapons, masks, and lames properly at every event protects against cheating AND from being suspected of cheating, so it's worth doing.

And, wearing proper equipment for safety - like plastrons - should never be compromised. A punctured lung aint no joke

[RITFencing]

*fighting the urge to restate what he has already said in many posts before*

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

*fighting the urge to restate what he has already said in many posts before*

Don't fight the urge. Sometimes a message worth delivering needs to be delivered several times before it sinks in.

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

i was at a high school varsity tournament yesterday, and it seemed extremeley casual. there was no weight testing or anything! the refs were ok otherwise, but i thought for sure they would do what (i thought) was standard procedure.

I understand the "casual" nature of many tournaments. That being said, skipping these tests does not really serve anyone's interest.

On the odd occasions that I ref, I prefer to see all tests performed as they tend (IMHO) to prevent problems from cropping up during the actual bouting. I would rather find a problem before the score-keeping starts than mid-bout. It is a small investment of time that prevents more unpleasant and more time-consuming problems later on.

The big thing, however, (again, IMHO) is that skipping these tests is a disservice to the fencers. If they are not exposed to these tests and are prepared to pass them on a local level, they will be woefully unprepared when they move to the kinds of tournaments in which such tests are the de-facto standard. Many of them will go to such tournaments with no clue how to make sure they are prepared and will run head-first into a brick wall when their equipment fails. This will, in turn, leave a bad taste in their mouths. The smart ones will realize that the lax attitudes that pervaded the local level did nothing but set them up for failure as they tried to advance to something bigger and better.

[Cookeit]

Is using WD40 on your tips cheating?

[pinkelephant]

Originally Posted by randomsabreur

90% of competitions in the UK don't use shims and weights. When I get forced to referee silly pointy stuff, I'm always convinced I'm going to drop the weight on my foot.

I doubt that many people cheat - you don't get wholesale failures that often, even when you spring testing on people in the later rounds.

On the other hand, last Birmingham (England, not Alabama) I was reffing WF and produced my weight at the start of a fight. One of the fencers, who, to put it charitably, has been around the block a few times, immediately asked to change her weapon. I refused, tested the weapon, which failed, and then required her to change it. Yellow card. Very satisfying.

School weapons take a lot of abuse, and the springs do go down eventually. However, whenever my lot (I'm a teacher and run a school fencing club) are going to a competition, I go through the whole lot and make sure they're legal before we set off. I don't care whether they're going to be tested otr not.

For a lot of kids' epee competitions in the UK we test weights and shims; we don't allow weapons which fail to be used, but don't card for it in the pool rounds. They then have time before the DE to get the problem sorted; we then do card in teh DE rounds.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Cookeit

Is using WD40 on your tips cheating?

No, but it is ill-advised. It will gunk them up real fast.

[commiemermaid]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

I would like to disagree with whtouche, though, that plenty of the equipment would fail normal inspections. In order that our fencers have working equipment when they do go to USFA events, we do tend to keep them able to pass the tests.

This is definitely true of my team. We spend a LOT of time on our weapons, including making sure they pass weights and shims -- because we know they'll get tested at USFA events, and because we've been taught to keep our stuff in good order. Our coach teaches us to do all the basic repairs, so when something doesn't check out it's more often than not fixed before the end of practice. I should hope that other teams have the same mentality of just wanting everything to work properly, not just because it'll get caught. Plus, I think taking care of equipment is part of being a good fencer. We get a lot of crap as a team for our stuff always being broken, but believe me, it's not for lack of effort -- more lack of budget. Gr.