Referee exam questions 90, 138

[SFfencer]

Any help for this question, I think I might be overthinking it.

90. Fencer X has received a RED CARD for disturbing order on the strip. X repeats the offense and receives a BLACK CARD. X protests the issuance of the BLACK CARD because the RED CARD was not noted on the scoresheet.
a. award a penalty touch for X’s opponent because of X’s unjustified appeal; the exclusion of X stands
b. no additional touch for X’s opponent; the exclusion of X stands
c. X’s protest is valid; X receives a RED CARD (noted on the scoresheet) for disturbing order

Also,

138. During a team match, in the second bout of the match Fencer #1 for Team X should have fenced, but Fencer #2 for Team X actually did fence. The error is caught at the beginning of the third bout.
a. Since the error happened early in the match, change the order of the fencers on the scoresheet and continue to fence as though Fencer #1 and Fencer #2 were in the changed slots.
b. Go back and fence the second bout over with the proper fencers. The bout never happened and the score should be reset to what it was at the end of the first bout.
c. Team X forfeits the match. Team Y wins.

Originally Posted by penalty chart t.120

Changing the order of bouts in a team match, intentionally or unintentionally is a loss of match

so the answer is C, but

Originally Posted by o.44

If this order is altered, intentionally or unintentionally, all the touches scored since the modification are annulled and the match is resumed in the correct order.

Is this a rule that the FIE and the USFA differ on, since the o. section refers to FIE competitions only?

[oiuyt]

90:

So, what are your thoughts so far? Is there one of the answers that you've eliminated? Have you eliminated all three? What rule(s) have you found that apply (or might come close to applying)?

138:

What edition of the USFA rulebook are you using?

http://www.fencingofficials.org/Rule...20-%20Sept.pdf

-B

[KD5MDK]

On 90, consider this:
If the offence was something else, like turning the back, should the end result be different than it is with a Group 3 Red card in terms of this protest?

[SFfencer]

90:
well, ... t.114 says

All warnings (Yellow Cards), penalty touches (Red Cards) and
exclusions (Black Cards) must be noted on the score sheet of
the bout, the pool or the match, together with the group to
which they belong.

90:Fencer X has received a RED CARD for disturbing order on the strip.

so, by that I have to assume that the referee did note it on the scoresheet.
and so fencer X is wrong in protesting, and why give him another red card, when he already has a black one,
so the answer is B?


138:
thanks, it seems that the one I downloaded from the FOC site a month ago was revised recently. (both are named Sept 2007)

[SFfencer]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

On 90, consider this:
If the offence was something else, like turning the back, should the end result be different than it is with a Group 3 Red card in terms of this protest?

edited:::
Fencer X has received a YELLOW CARD for turning the back.
X repeats the offense and receives a RED CARD.
X protests the issuance of the RED CARD because the YELLOW CARD was not noted on the scoresheet.

So,
The referee did note the yellow card on the scoresheet,
the protest is unjustified,
fencer X gets the red card for turning and a red card for unjustified appeal.

so the answer is A.

a. award a penalty touch for X’s opponent because of X’s unjustified appeal; the exclusion of X stands

[KD5MDK]

We should assume that the fencer's protest about the card not being recorded on the scoresheet is accurate in its facts. If we don't, the question becomes moot. This is a rules question, not a facts question.

[TooLoftheDeviL]

This is the kind of thinking that assure you will fail the exam. You mustn't overthink the questions. Everything you need to answer the questions is provided in the questions.

[SFfencer]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

We should assume that the fencer's protest about the card not being recorded on the scoresheet is accurate in its facts. If we don't, the question becomes moot. This is a rules question, not a facts question.

edited. Fencer X has received a YELLOW CARD for turning the back.
X repeats the offense and receives a RED CARD.
X protests the issuance of the RED CARD because the YELLOW CARD was not noted on the scoresheet.

Originally Posted by t.122

No appeal can be made against the decision of the Referee regarding
a point of fact (cf. t.95/c, t.96/b).
If a fencer infringes this principle, casting doubt on the decision of
the Referee on a point of fact during the bout, he will be penalized
according to the rules (cf. t.114. t.116, t.120). But if the Referee is
ignorant of or misunderstands a definite rule, or applies it in a
manner contrary to the Rules, an appeal on this matter may be
entertained.
This appeal must be made:
— in individual events, by the fencer;
— in team events, by the fencer or the team captain.
This appeal should be made courteously but without formality, and
should be made verbally to the Referee immediately and before any
decision is made regarding a subsequent touch.
If the Referee maintains his opinion, the Head Referee has authority
to settle an appeal (cf. t.97). If such an appeal is deemed to be
unjustified, the fencer will be penalized in accordance with Articles
t.114, t.116, t.120.

So, "the Referee is ignorant of or misunderstands a definite rule" = did not note it on the scoresheet,
so yellow card for turning the back (noted on the scoresheet)

So, for the original question,
the answer is
"c. X’s protest is valid; X receives a RED CARD (noted on the scoresheet) for disturbing order"

thanks for clearing it up (I hope for the last time)

[Tomas N]

Originally Posted by TooLoftheDeviL

This is the kind of thinking that assure you will fail the exam. You mustn't overthink the questions. Everything you need to answer the questions is provided in the questions.

This is true for all questions, except those that you need to overthink and in which all the information is not provided in the question. The trick is to figure out which category each question is in.

Tomas

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by SFfencer

90:
well, ... t.114 says



so, by that I have to assume that the referee did note it on the scoresheet.

This kind of logic (which makes sense, but unfortunately doesn't match up with the intention of the question) is why the ref guide needs to be retuned.

[Inquartata]

Cards must be noted on the scoresheet, but the rule dose not specify that it must be immediately after the card is given. In fact, it doesn't say anything at all about when it must be done. IMO the ref can annotate the card at any time before returning the sheet and by the wording of the rule he has complied with its terms.

[Lemonaide]

I think the answers are:

C [and]
C



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[tbryan]

Originally Posted by Lemonaide

I think the answers are:

C [and]
C

I think you need to read o.44 again. They've changed that rule since you last looked.

[Slacker]

I agree: c & c.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Slacker

I agree: c & c.

you don't lose a match for putting the fencers in the wrong order.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by tbryan

I think you need to read o.44 again. They've changed that rule since you last looked.

Yeah, but have the changed the test to keep up?

[Lemonaide]

I'll take another look.


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[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by HDG

Yeah, but have the changed the test to keep up?

Yes.

-B

[jmos58]

Let me guess Fencer X is actually you SFfencer, that keeps on repeating the rule infraction? Fencer X had know chance to keep from getting the red card.

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Yes.

-B

Hmmm, the rules file is marked as having been updated in September 2007, but the date of the Exam pdf file is November 2006....

Am I looking at the wrong file? aka, the links on the main page at fencingofficials.org haven't been updated?