Circular parries in sabre?

[Blackbird]

My high school team has two coaches that specialize in foil and epee, leaving sabre in a kind of limbo. While the foil coach seems to be fairly well versed in sabre, he introduced a drill today that has most of the squad confused. It consists of fencer 1 attacking fencer 2's 4 with fencer 2 responding by circling around the blade and pushing it over to the 3 and then riposting to the wrist. It doesn't work quite so well. Are we just clueless noobs who need to suck it up and learn a new drill or is there some detail that we're missing that is needed for the drill to work or is this not really meant for sabres? The drill currently does not involve footwork.

[erooMynohtnA]

Since it's saber, involving footwork may be a good idea.

I'm low enough to be virtually invisible in the spectrum of saber expertise here, but you're not really doing a new drill (attack, parry, riposte [no footwork]), just a new parry. I don't know how common it is in upper level saber, but I see circle tierce a lot.

Your distance is probably off. Try starting farther away (or better yet, a dynamic position). Have the attacker attack/advance-lunge and have the defender retreat/parry then riposte/lunge.

Plus, just doing choreographed parry/riposte drills is ridiculous anyway. If you've been fencing for more than a day you should be incorporating other things.

[Purple Fencer]

If you;re being attacked in 4, doing a circular 3 (6 in foil) is very risky...you might drag your opponent's blade into you...mal parre touch for him.

Better to do a 4 parry-riposte....especially if the attack in 4 is far to your outside...you don;t need to be chasing the blade.

[AndrewH]

Yea pushing his blade into you as you parry would be the main concern there. Respond to an attack in 4 with a parry 4, plus the requisite footwork to maintain proper distance (parries are all about footwork, the most perfectly executed blade movement is entirely nullified if the distance is so close the opponent can hit anyway).

Circular parries do have some use in sabre... but if you're new to the weapon I would concern yourself with drilling the basic 3, 4 and 5 parries until they become muscle memory before trying out the more advanced (and riskier) stuff.

[Phaeton]

The action is valid, the moment is totally wrong. Doing a circular tierce against a cut to chest is more than silly.

[Rock]

Is fencer 1 attacking with the point or with a chest cut?

[eac]

Bladework drills (scripted ones with two partners, anyway) are completely useless. I expect they're even less useful in sabre than they are in foil, since bladework in sabre is comparatively less complicated, and footwork is more important. You don't get better doing bladework drills. I did them for five years; I only started to get much better when I stopped doing them and focused on real fencing instead. I've made *much* more total progress in the two years I haven't been doing them than in the five that I did do them. Do footwork drills, take lessons and fence instead. Watch Division I fencing. If you have a question about what works and what doesn't, two algorithms are both better than posting on fencing.net or trying it in a bladework drill: a) ask yourself whether you've seen a Div I top-32 fencer try it, and b) try it yourself in a real bout, in real time.

[stu]

You do seem to be going very much the long way round with this parry. If you have time to do something so complicated, you probably have time to just step back and hit them as they miss.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Originally Posted by eac

Bladework drills (scripted ones with two partners, anyway) are completely useless. I expect they're even less useful in sabre than they are in foil, since bladework in sabre is comparatively less complicated, and footwork is more important. You don't get better doing bladework drills. I did them for five years; I only started to get much better when I stopped doing them and focused on real fencing instead. I've made *much* more total progress in the two years I haven't been doing them than in the five that I did do them. Do footwork drills, take lessons and fence instead. Watch Division I fencing. If you have a question about what works and what doesn't, two algorithms are both better than posting on fencing.net or trying it in a bladework drill: a) ask yourself whether you've seen a Div I top-32 fencer try it, and b) try it yourself in a real bout, in real time.

That's simply not true. Footwork in sabre is obviously crucial. But you need to accompany a small hand with that footwork. How do you do that? Drills. A huge hand will destroy you, and the way to make actions smaller is not just fencing, and footwork drills...it's mainly doing bladework drills. I would say you're nearly 100% wrong claiming that there is no place for bladework drills. Maybe you're fencing improved because your distance and timing got better. There are a myriad of reasons you could have gotten better. However, not doing bladework drills is hurting you fencing, plain and simple. You need to work on all aspects on the game, right now you're suggesting to a new fencer to just completely exclude learning how to do actions correctly.

You were right about lessons though...they're more helpful than drills, but drills are still incredibly important.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

In sabre, I found that anything that seemed kind of like a circle UP (weird beats, or having your blade just not be there when they try to beat it) would work well, but refs just wouldn't see anyone's attempt to do anything that seemed kind of like a circle DOWN to be a good idea. Could be the somewhat questionable refs, or might not.

[randomsabreur]

There are a lot of bladework drills that have nothing to do with competitive fencing and everything to do with hand skill and precision and programming. All of the continuity hitting, continuity beat drills are "irrelevant" competitively. What they do is give you practice going from beat to hit cleanly and neatly. Parry drills give you the muscle memory to pull off an instinctive, reaction parry when you've made a bit of an error with your initially planned action - i.e. you missed/got parried! I get a fair few hits this way, because I used to do a lot of parry drills.

Circle tierce stikes me as something it is worth knowing - if done at the right distance, it is probably easier to prevent a remise than if you're in quarte - you're more programmed to hit covering the tierce side than the quarte. Obviously if you're too close, you will get hit - that is a standard sabre problem. Probably more useful for an attack to hand, rather than back shoulder though.

[samh]

I think partner exercises for bladework (while using footwork) are very important. If you can afford to get a lesson everyday then maybe they're not 100% necessary but if you can only afford 1-2-3 lessons per week then drills are how you ingrain the actions that you learn.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by randomsabreur

Probably more useful for an attack to hand, rather than back shoulder though.

Exactly.

The attack to your 4 line should be targetted to the inside of the wrist.

Alternatively the attack could be targetted to head.

Targetting it to deep 4 doesn't make much sense given the rest of the drill.

Moving the drill quickly to a more bout-like setting (say starting 4m apart and attacking off of a "Fence!" command) will help work out timing/distance issues, as well as show how it's relevant to actual competition. That said, the mechanics can be learned first with minimal (or no) footwork.

-B

[tkexi991]

Originally Posted by eac

Bladework drills (scripted ones with two partners, anyway) are completely useless. I expect they're even less useful in sabre than they are in foil, since bladework in sabre is comparatively less complicated, and footwork is more important. You don't get better doing bladework drills. I did them for five years; I only started to get much better when I stopped doing them and focused on real fencing instead. I've made *much* more total progress in the two years I haven't been doing them than in the five that I did do them. Do footwork drills, take lessons and fence instead. Watch Division I fencing. If you have a question about what works and what doesn't, two algorithms are both better than posting on fencing.net or trying it in a bladework drill: a) ask yourself whether you've seen a Div I top-32 fencer try it, and b) try it yourself in a real bout, in real time.

So you think you would be at the same level or higher if you skipped five years of bladework drills altogether? Two years of footwork drills, lessons, and open bouting is enough to be good?

[Adler]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Moving the drill quickly to a more bout-like setting (say starting 4m apart and attacking off of a "Fence!" command)
-B

How is adding increased distance and a verbal command more useful? You may be adding bout-like paraphernalia to the exercise but it is still simple reaction.

What in my opinion would be more usefull is having the defender use various preparations to draw an attack to wrist which then could be parried by circular tierce or to draw a counter attack which could be met by a counter-time of circular tierce.

[oso97]

Why isn't this discussion in the coaching forum?

Okay, so it is important to ask what the purpose of the drill is, and then construct it accordingly. A drill (except at the most basic and beginner levels, like as in they're still learning how to hold the sabre) should never consist of one iteration. There should be a flow between the segments. So, here is a basic circle 3 parry drill - one that you'll find in use at many clubs, and I've stolen multiple times. All instructions assume righty vs righty or lefty vs lefty. Simple modifications can be made for righty vs lefty.

Phase 1: A holds position, while B makes advance-lunge attack to head. Ensure that distance is correct, that B's arm is extending before the feet start moving and extending the entire time.

Phase 2: B makes advance-lunge to head, A makes circle-3 riposte to [pick target: Head, inside cheek, chest, and top of weapon forearm if you want to be really difficult and confusing not recommended for beginners]. Ensure that A is taking a retreat with the parry, and performing the riposte with the appropriate footwork for the distance - which could be no footwork, advance, lunge, or advance lunge, depending on if B is holding position, recovering, or recover-retreating, and what the target area is.

Phase 3: B starts advance-lunge to head, A makes circle-3. B deceives and hits chest. Ensure proper hand and foot coordination by B and A.

Phase 4: B starts advance-lunge to head, A makes circle-3. B deceives and attacks chest, A moves to 4. Parry and riposte to [pick target: Head, outside cheek, chest, belly slash, outside of weapon arm]. Again, ensure proper hand-foot coordination.

That's probably quite enough for a class environment, unless its one of quite high level students - in which case, they're going to be doing the subsequent iterations as part of a lesson.

Key among this is that B is attacking >HEAD< not >CHEST< as others have pointed out. Otherwise you end up doing a transport on the blade, which is, the majority of the time, incredibly stupid in sabre (there are however a few times when it is also appropriate).

That being said - doing a false circle-3, out of distance, and deliberately letting them deceive can be extraordinarily effective in setting up a nice parry 4 riposte .

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Adler

How is adding increased distance and a verbal command more useful? You may be adding bout-like paraphernalia to the exercise but it is still simple reaction.

I probably wouldn't bother with a verbal command. Having one of the partners signal (slapping leg, etc.) is generally sufficient for most purposes.

In my experience, when people do a single action from a stationary position they tend not to execute it the same way as they would from movement. That's true both for the attacker and for the defender.

Since my eventual goal is to have the defender be able to execute a parry in a bout -- where both the attacker and defender will be executing dynamic actions -- I want to create that setting as soon as I can after teaching the basic mechanics.

Removing complications (which include, among other things, variable distance and movement) can help with correcting the elements that remain. As soon as that's accomplished it's helpful to start adding those complications back in.

Going from a "Fence!" setting additionally gives a bit of time for the appropriate preparations to be included -- something that's difficult starting from a static position.

-B

[Don Badowski]

Originally Posted by eac

Bladework drills (scripted ones with two partners, anyway) are completely useless.

Unrealistic bladework drills are pretty useless, unless it's just to get the move down. To get the most benefit, the drill partners have to make real attempts to hit. One thing that drives me crazy is watching paired foil drills where Fencer A makes a half hearted attempt at a lunge, and their point doesn't even pass Fencer Bs guard.

As for the circle 3 parry, if you have the 2003 World Championship DVD's, you'll see Mihai Covaliu doing a few circle 3's against Vlad Lukashenko. But it is against what appears to be an attack to the inside arm. And Covaliu drops his hand quite low and back to pull it off.

[eac]

1. KShan5 would predict that I have big hand actions; I don't. I have excellent point control, and tight, crisp parries. It's improved most of all in the past two years, entirely from lessons and people yelling at me to make my hand actions small. Bladework drills don't help with that. I was 23rd in D1MF this past weekend. Not to toot my own horn, but to say that I don't think I could have done that with large, sloppy hand actions. The #2 in the world in Junior MF has never done a bladework drill with a partner in his entire life.

Continuity and beat-hit and muscle memory and like that are all much better taught in lessons, where the coach is right there getting hit to tell you that you're doing it wrong, rather than cementing bad, slow, unrealistic habits with another equally incompetent partner.

2. tkexi991: I improved some over the five years because I did some footwork, took some lessons, and fenced some real people. If I hadn't fenced at all during those five years, I would be worse now, but if I had just removed the bladework drills, I probably would be about as good or better. I remember many a time at my old club where I would fence for an hour in the morning, do well, then go into a class with tons of bladework drills, and then try to fence again, and my timing, speed, distance, and technique were all completely shot compared to a friend who had skipped the drills. They're harmful, if anything. Much of my improvement over the past two years has come from eliminating the effects of those bladework drills; when I first switched clubs my results went down, because I had hacked my bad slow drill-driven bladework into a sort of working system, and had to eliminate that. Then they went precipitously up, as I acquired real technique, from lessons, footwork drills, and real fencing.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by eac

The #2 in the world in Junior MF has never done a bladework drill with a partner in his entire life.

Gerek, for those interested.

-B