tennis elbow

[Inquartata]

With a name like Donna, I doubt it's "him"...

Anyway, I'm now I'm curious. Maybe what I have had was not tendinitis after all. Because as I said it did not yield to rest. Only when I got tired of resting and went back to full activity did it finally go away. And it never seemed to have anything to do with what was going on wrist-wise...

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by DonnaP

Samster,

This is a topic that drives me to drink!! This is what I do for a living and so here are my two cents..

1. You don't get your medical advice from an on-line chat board.

... and yet, that's what we all do, but not just on-line chat boards. When human beings have problems, they share with their family and friends. Interestingly, now that we are in the 3rd millennium, the definition of "friends" includes people with whom we have connected courtesy of cyber-space. When we share with such people, whether in person or online, we create an instantaneous support group. It's a good thing.

Back when I was diagnosed with gall bladder problems, when I told friends/family, I discovered that probably 20% of the people I knew had also had problems. Until I did this, I had no knowledge of their bout with that ailment.

The sad thing is that the legal/liability/insurance framework that our medical community is forced to work within makes for some very linear thinking on the part of many of our medical professionals. (Does it hurt? Take a pill. High blood pressure? Take a pill. Can't get it up? Take a pill.) Often, the friends/family support network can help a person to understand what is going on (when the doctor fails to explain), and ask the right questions of the medical professionals. Sometimes, they even have think-outside-the-box solutions that are unlikely to be offered by the medical community that just might work.

Don't get me wrong. I am not suggesting that the trip to the doctor should be skipped. It should not. But I am suggesting that the doctor is not the only information resource that should be used. Patients are not just patients. They are also customers, and an informed customer is a smart customer.

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

And it never seemed to have anything to do with what was going on wrist-wise...

But it may.

A friend of mine used to say, "Tickle me here, I will laugh someplace else." By this he meant that just because something hurts, it doesn't necessarily mean that the point where the pain occurs is the source of the problem.

A few years ago, I had a pain in my elbow. Through careful observation I discovered that the root cause was a computer game I was playing. The game required me to hit keys on the keyboard in rapid succession and hold them down. Ostensibly, all the activity was in my fingers, but the net effect was a pain in my elbow. I quit playing the game and the pain went away.

That's why I asked about the grip.

[samster]

One challenge I have is finding myselft the right pistol grip. I'm fencing French and wonder if that's a part of the problem. With the above discussion of wrist use and all, perhaps a pistol grip would relieve some of the stress currently put on my arm.

It also probably doesn't help that I'm really a righty, but am fencing lefty (due to some physical issues.)

I've posted a few times about my not-so-positive experiences with visconti, belgian and several others, but am still looking for a PG that suits my hand.

-Sam

[samster]

Originally Posted by parrythis

... and yet, that's what we all do, but not just on-line chat boards. When human beings have problems, they share with their family and friends. Interestingly, now that we are in the 3rd millennium, the definition of "friends" includes people with whom we have connected courtesy of cyber-space. When we share with such people, whether in person or online, we create an instantaneous support group. It's a good thing.

I'll second that. I've got a PT appt set up, but that won't happen until January. Until then, judicious use of chatboard advice has helped relieve some of the discomfort.

[samster]

Originally Posted by piste off

It might be traced to how you fence. Also, which weapon do you fence?

Are you constantly getting caught on your opponent's blade (e.g. in six)? Do you fence with the lightest weapon possible?

Rick

Foil. French grip. Left handed, so I take hard beats from left to right when I'm on the inside. But, as mentioned above, I'm a righty in everthing else I do. This problem actually got worse when I switched over to heavier FIE blades.

I'm currently using a forearm brace and a strap to hold the grip to my wrist. These have both helped. But, again as mentioned above, I'm searching for a pistol grip that will work for me.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by parrythis

Don't get me wrong. I am not suggesting that the trip to the doctor should be skipped. It should not. But I am suggesting that the doctor is not the only information resource that should be used. Patients are not just patients. They are also customers, and an informed customer is a smart customer.

Conversation with my podiatrist, who was feeling my foot after I described my symptoms thoroughly. He finally said, "There's a thing called a Morton's--"
"neuroma--," I finished.
"Yes. And it--"
"--Yeah, I know, I'll pretty much have to live with it."
"The Internet is a wonderful thing."
"Yeah, but you notice I didn't say anything until you told me."
And we continued on from there.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by parrythis

But it may.

A friend of mine used to say, "Tickle me here, I will laugh someplace else." By this he meant that just because something hurts, it doesn't necessarily mean that the point where the pain occurs is the source of the problem.

What I meant was that I would experience pain when making sweeping, overextending cuts at certain angles, or vigorous feint cuts such as feint 4 switch fast to cut 3---and the wrist was not involved in these cases.

Also, I would get pain when bending the elbow, and sometimes just at rest when the elbow was bent ( and which stopped when I straightened the arm out ). If an act is going to cause pain---even referred pain---I'd think it would require the act involve the source site, not the pain site. That is, manipulating the wrist should cause the pain, not manipulating the elbow...

When lifting weights the exercises which caused pain were the ones you'd expect, like curls and flyes. Wrist curls meanwhile typically did not...

[lindajdunn]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

What I meant was that I would experience pain when making sweeping, overextending cuts at certain angles, or vigorous feint cuts such as feint 4 switch fast to cut 3---and the wrist was not involved in these cases.

Also, I would get pain when bending the elbow, and sometimes just at rest when the elbow was bent ( and which stopped when I straightened the arm out ). If an act is going to cause pain---even referred pain---I'd think it would require the act involve the source site, not the pain site. That is, manipulating the wrist should cause the pain, not manipulating the elbow...

When lifting weights the exercises which caused pain were the ones you'd expect, like curls and flyes. Wrist curls meanwhile typically did not...

That describes my symptoms and I went to a doctor, had an MRI (because I asked for one, thinking there was more involved and they did find a small tendor tear in the shoulder), and have seen a specialist and an occupational therapist. The football pass position caused the most trouble for me, however, and that's why I had at least 8 inches of hair removed from my head. [Combing my hair HURT!]. Extending the arm was the second biggest source of pain.

[mark_anthony]

I'll throw my 2 cents into the pot.

I too have this fencers elbow that has been discussed here. I can pinpoint just exactly when I got it - I had been doing a lot of beat parry practice with my hand in almost complete supination ( thumb at three) -- yeah, I know, but I was trying it out. This was followed by violent pulling of a lawn mower cord for a mower that just wouldn't start. After one particularly strong pull - I never did get the thing started - I had great pain. Holding a toothbrush was painful.

Doctors, x-rays, many PT (ultrasound; electronic stim; ice; massage) visits later I am much better, but I still feel a bit frustrated....but this is probably self-inflicted as I know now what to do. Rest. There have been many very good suggestions, certainly Donna had an excellent run down, but the common significant item is to rest your arm. Sometimes I sleep with a wrist brace and this seems to help; I drive mostly with my other hand; I got a laser mouse which cut down significantly my wrist movements.....

....but - for me anyway - the most effective item has been getting to bed early and really getting some rest. I know this- but do I do it?: No.---but that's another story.

Fencing wise -in lttle over two years I've become a fencing junkie. So, it's tough to cut down and give myself time to heal. I can't seem to go 3 days without getting very antsy. What has helped here tremendously is moving from French to a pistol grip. Which makes sense as these grips were probably developed for people with arm/hand problems.

I have tried many and have settled on a visconti. I also have sprayed mine with a textured spraypaint, which has really helped as I don't feel I have to pinch or squeeze as hard.

Lastly, if you want to feel better, enter a veteran's tournament. I had a great time at one recently - knee braces, arm braces and stories galore...lots of good information and lots of laughs.

[pinkelephant]

My biggest problem with the whole wrist/elbow/shoulder thing is the amount of red pen I apply to paper in my day job. I'm sure it's fencing that caused the problem, but it's teaching that stops it going away. I can use a mouse left-handed, but write? I've tried, but it takes 3 times as long and is half as legible. I can type and use a projector instead of using the whiteboard (except for chemical structures), but I haven't yet found a way of using a computer to mark tests and homework.

[Ordway]

Originally Posted by pinkelephant

My biggest problem with the whole wrist/elbow/shoulder thing is the amount of red pen I apply to paper in my day job. I'm sure it's fencing that caused the problem, but it's teaching that stops it going away. I can use a mouse left-handed, but write? I've tried, but it takes 3 times as long and is half as legible. I can type and use a projector instead of using the whiteboard (except for chemical structures), but I haven't yet found a way of using a computer to mark tests and homework.

A couple of suggestions from a fellow teacher:

--Switch to a fat, rounded pen if you are using a thin one.
--Use a gel pen - the ink flows out with minimal pressure. I never use ball-points any more.
--Consciously relax your grip. Death grip on pen = bad.
--Consider a coding system for comments, if you write comments: check mark or underline means good idea/correct, question mark means not clear, etc. Or use different colored highlighters.
--If you write on the board, it is possible to learn how to write left-handed on the board much more easily than it is to learn to write on paper left-handed. I wasn't able to learn how to write comments or even mark checks with my left hand, but in just one semester I learned how to write legibly on the board with my left hand. After a second left-handed semester, my board writing is just as clear and almost as fast with my left as with my right hand.
--Watch your posture while grading, and consciously sit up straight, no slumping/hunching the shoulder.

[samster]

Originally Posted by mark_anthony

I had been doing a lot of beat parry practice with my hand in almost complete supination ( thumb at three) -- yeah, I know, but I was trying it out.

is this a bad thing? if so, why?

[magic_moose]

Originally Posted by samster

One challenge I have is finding myselft the right pistol grip. I'm fencing French and wonder if that's a part of the problem.

FWIW, my fencer's elbow went away about a year and a half ago when I switched from french to pistol grip. I think the pistol kept me from gripping so tightly while parrying.

I use an Uhlman/Allstar visconti, partly because it is what my coach insists on, partly because I like it.

[lindajdunn]

Since we're talking about tennis elbow:

It's a good idea to use heat before exercise and then ice afterwards. This is an old recipee that's been around more than a few times and it's what the OT recommended:

Microwave moist heat:
Dampen a hand towel or dish towel with warm water
Place towl in a plastic bag leaving the bag open.
Place bag in a microwave and heat on HIGH for 2 minutes. (longer if necessary)
CAREFULLY remove from Microwave and wrap in 1-2 towels (6-10 layers)
Apply to heated area 20-30 minutes (it should be cooling by then).

This is before exercising.

After exercising, ice. Here's the menu for homemade ice packs:
Pour 3 cups of water and 1 cup of rubbing alcohol (the cheapest brand you can find) into a 2 quart or larger freezer-safe, self-sealing plastic bag. Close tight, give a shake or two to mix, then remove as much of the air as possible. Put in the freezer for at least 24 hours.

The ice pack will freeze into a slush that conforms to just about any part of the body. The alcohol keeps the water from freezing rock hard and you can just pit it back in the freezer and use over and over.

Caution: Do't place the ice pack directly on the skin. Instead, wrap it in a towel first to protect your skin from frostbite. After each use, wipe off the outside of the ice pack and refreeze until it's needed again.

FWIW, I already had a cryocuff, so I purchased the elbow attachment and find this works very well but it is a rather expensive option.

http://www.buyaircast.com/cryo-cuff-elbow.htm