12-05-2007, 10:39 PM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Illinois
Posts: 133
| FIE Requirements for Foil-WHY LEXAN MASKS!?!?!?!?!
WHY IS THE FIE DOING THIS!!!!! 
Any opinions regarding this matter?  Personally, I do NOT like the Lexan Masks.... And NOW they are rquired for International events... | 
|  | | And now for this message... |
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12-05-2007, 10:41 PM
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#2 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Hoboken, NJ and Worcester, MA
Posts: 280
| What's not to like about them? | |
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12-05-2007, 11:12 PM
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#3 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
Posts: 8,951
| To help fencing become a world-wide media giant.
-B
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"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
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12-05-2007, 11:12 PM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003 Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 4,420
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Visit my non-fencing blog, mostly about food, at Coset The Table!
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12-05-2007, 11:44 PM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Pacoima, ca USA
Posts: 5,991
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Miglin  What's not to like about them? |
The lexan plates can and have fallen out.
They only have a 2 year lifespan and are subject to a number of risk factors that eventually degrade the plastic.
I don't care if it's the same stuff used in fighter canopies...steel bends....plastic shatters...do you know what spauling is??
C02 retention rates were too high according to Medical
As an armorer, I canNOT test the mask with the probe in front of the eyes....the place there Smirnov got killed.
The rationale is weak sauce at best....has ANYONE seen an increase in TV coverage due to the masks???
And last but not least...Roch is an idiot. | |
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12-05-2007, 11:52 PM
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#6 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
Posts: 8,951
| *notes that the 2 year lifespan matches the timeframe for which DD suggests the SEMI commision has determined FIE masks not needing testing on the mesh, which removes much of the complaint about lack of testability of the lexan*
*wonders if that's coincidental*
*notes that this point won't convince PF one iota*
-B
*who owns/uses a lexan mask (and will be replacing the lexan bit this weekend) but is very unconvinced of their utility towards making the sport media friendly*
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"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
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12-06-2007, 12:20 AM
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#7 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Pacoima, ca USA
Posts: 5,991
| Quote:
Originally Posted by oiuyt *notes that the 2 year lifespan matches the timeframe for which DD suggests the SEMI commision has determined FIE masks not needing testing on the mesh, which removes much of the complaint about lack of testability of the lexan*
*wonders if that's coincidental*
*notes that this point won't convince PF one iota*
-B
*who owns/uses a lexan mask (and will be replacing the lexan bit this weekend) but is very unconvinced of their utility towards making the sport media friendly* | *notes that there are reason he will not sell them* | |
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12-06-2007, 01:14 AM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 139
| As a rather nitpicky point this has been coming for foil at the FIE level for a while. Do I agree? No. Do I care? Not really, and unless you are currently ranked somewhere in the top 50 in your country and looking to improve that it really wont effect you at all.
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12-06-2007, 01:34 AM
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#9 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Pacoima, ca USA
Posts: 5,991
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Originally Posted by LordShout As a rather nitpicky point this has been coming for foil at the FIE level for a while. Do I agree? No. Do I care? Not really, and unless you are currently ranked somewhere in the top 50 in your country and looking to improve that it really wont effect you at all. | A broken blade doesn't particularly care if you're a scrub like me or if you're Golubitsky....safety is safety... | |
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12-06-2007, 01:43 AM
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#10 | | Yes We Did
Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,161
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Fencer A broken blade doesn't particularly care if you're a scrub like me or if you're Golubitsky....safety is safety... | That's true.
I will probably never have to wear one, nor will Lordshout.
However, I know we both fence people who are in the top 50 nationally and do compete in FIE tournaments. Just because we're not on the receiving end of a broken blade in the eye doesn't mean it's nothing to worry about. I, personally, would feel a little bad for accidentally killing someone.
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12-06-2007, 02:09 AM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,103
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Originally Posted by oiuyt (and will be replacing the lexan bit this weekend) | Yea, I gotta get a new lexan bit this weekend also, it's about time since the current one is pretty scratched up but it's still $40 I could have put to good use otherwise...
Has anyone actually taken a broken blade and tried to ram it through a piece of lexan? I think one of the vendors should put on a little "MythBusters: Fencing Edition" and get that question answered once and for all.
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Andrew
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12-06-2007, 02:40 AM
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#12 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Angel, London
Posts: 2,488
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Originally Posted by Purple Fencer As an armorer, I canNOT test the mask with the probe in front of the eyes....the place there Smirnov got killed. | Doesn't your test probe weaken the mask anyway? Thats what I've been told.
I've still never seen one. | |
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12-06-2007, 02:59 AM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Pacoima, ca USA
Posts: 5,991
| Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder Doesn't your test probe weaken the mask anyway? Thats what I've been told.
I've still never seen one. | That's a misconception. If you push the probe in continually on the same spot, it'll eventually fail.....that's one thing they test for in CE/FIE testing, but in regular testing the probe is put all over the place, and only briefly at that....the mask isn;t taking the probe pressure on teh same spot again and again and again.
What actually happens isn't the the wire breaks (although that DOES happen in regular use), but that the weave fails and the wires get pushed apart.
Most fencers only get their masks tested at a tournament, and by many different people running the control, so the chance of continual and repeated tests on the SAME spot are slim.
As for you never seeing a mask test (i think that's what you're referring to), you don't because you direct at FIE events...all that's required at those is a visual and tactile inspection...no punch.
If you go to any regular domestic US tourney, tho, you WILL see the mask test. (and if anyone goes to a US tourney and there is no mask test, you let us armorers know so we can chew the BC out!)
Last edited by Purple Fencer; 12-06-2007 at 03:02 AM.
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12-06-2007, 03:37 AM
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#14 | | Épéeist Hive Queen
Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sweden
Posts: 12,759
| Quote:
Originally Posted by jbenjamin WHY IS THE FIE DOING THIS!!!!! | Because they hate foil too. 
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12-06-2007, 10:19 AM
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#15 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
Posts: 8,951
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Originally Posted by Purple Fencer If you go to any regular domestic US tourney, tho, you WILL see the mask test. (and if anyone goes to a US tourney and there is no mask test, you let us armorers know so we can chew the BC out!) | The vast majority of domestic tournaments that I have attended did not include a punch test. Or any other armory control.
Some divisions do them regularly, other divisions never, yet others only at larger events. Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Fencer That's a misconception. If you push the probe in continually on the same spot, it'll eventually fail..... | So what you mean to say is "Yes, you're right Downunder. But it weakens it only a very little bit and would take enough repeated probes in the same area to have a significant impact on the degradation of the safety that we can reasonably ignore this effect. Unless your mask has a feature (such as a slight dent or other irregularity) that increases the chances of every technician testing the same spot (or few spots)."
Do I think that the slight weakening is an issue? No. But it's hard to claim that it doesn't, at least slightly, weaken the integrity of the mask.
-B
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"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
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12-06-2007, 11:47 AM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 367
| Quote:
Originally Posted by jbenjamin WHY IS THE FIE DOING THIS!!!!!
Any opinions regarding this matter? Personally, I do NOT like the Lexan Masks.... And NOW they are rquired for International events... | Only in the top 32, and let's be honest. Are you going to be there anytime soon? | |
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12-06-2007, 12:07 PM
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#17 | | Just Joined
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 19
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Fencer As an armorer, I canNOT test the mask with the probe in front of the eyes....the place there Smirnov got killed. | Hmmm...good point. Maybe this is what they have in mind as far as increased coverage. I took Sports Illustrated ( rag ) for several years , during my subscription the Smirnov thing was the only fencing that got covered.
Geesh, talk about Direct Elimination. Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Fencer ...Roch is an idiot. | I'm a newb here but I'm beginning to pick up on a theme regarding this guy.  | |
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12-06-2007, 12:19 PM
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#18 | | Epee fencing addict
Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Glenwood, ny
Posts: 2,302
| Quote:
Originally Posted by oiuyt To help fencing become a world-wide media giant. | LMAO! Everyone knows that to become a world-wide media giant you need beer sponsors! 
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12-06-2007, 12:27 PM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Live in Maine...Fence in New Hampshire
Posts: 1,289
| Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewH *snip* Has anyone actually taken a broken blade and tried to ram it through a piece of lexan? I think one of the vendors should put on a little "MythBusters: Fencing Edition" and get that question answered once and for all. | Pretty much. Lexan is a brand of polycarbonate sheet. The brand I used to manufacture was made by CY/RO Industries. We would beat on it with big, heavy pieces of iron, amongst other things. I also have a utility trailer made out of it. The material is less than 1/8" thick, but the trailer survives highway speeds. I also use the same 1/8" thick polycarbonate as a backdrop for archery. It never even cracks.
When you take a piece of polycarb and stress it, and tap the side lightly with a utility knife, you get instant catastrophic failure.
I hope that makes you feel better. | |
