Double Fleche - Who gets the back touch?

[erik_blank]

First, lets be clear - This question relates to FOIL. Any reader getting confused that this is in any way related to Saber should re-initialize their thinking process and start from zero.

I know that in a standard Flech attack when the attacker (and passer) misses, the person being passed has the right to an immediate attack to their opponents back. An interesting thing came up last night during a pickup bout. Fencer A started a flech attack, Fencer B reacted with one of his own. Neither person landed on the initial attack (or Counter attack as the case may be) since Fencer A is slow and old, the opportunity existed for BOTH fencers to turn and attack their opponent as they passed... The question aI have is: Since both fencers are passing AND BEING PASSED at teh same time, does EITHER have the right to turn and attack the other? (in the actual bout, both fencers did turn and despite multiple jabs, and some of the UGLIEST fencing I've done in months, neither of us could manage to land a point on the other... *sigh*)

[noodle]

I know that in a standard Flech attack when the attacker (and passer) misses, the person being passed has the right to an immediate attack to their opponents back.

false.
everything else fails because this premise is incorrect.

[seak]

If the remises didn't start (and/or hit) till they had passed each other, neither has the right to score. I would probably have called a halt for passing and set them at the appropriate places Note this is also true in the case of one person fleching and the other performing a simple parry - riposte. Of course it's impossible to say for sure without having actually seen the action.

The action must start before the pass.

[Cry_Me_A_River]

false.
everything else fails because this premise is incorrect.

+1
Once your opponent has passed you the action is called to a halt.

[rory]

+1
Once your opponent has passed you the action is called to a halt.

Unless you've parried, in which case you have the right to riposte.
Not "start an attack to the opponent's back" - but riposte, if you've parried.

Passing is a soft halt.

[erik_blank]

false.
everything else fails because this premise is incorrect.

??? Which part of the initial post are you finding incorrect?

t.21 Displacing the target and ducking are allowed even if during the action the unarmed hand comes into contact with the strip.
It is forbidden to turn one’s back on one’s opponent during the bout. Should such an offence occur, the Referee will penalize the fencer at fault as specified in Articles t.114, t.116, t.120 and any touch scored by the fencer at fault is annulled.
When a fencer goes past his opponent during a bout, the Referee must immediately call ‘Halt’ and replace the competitors in the positions which they occupied before the passing took place.
When touches are made as a fencer passes his opponent, the touch made immediately is valid; a touch made after passing his opponent by the competitor who has made the passing movement is annulled, but the touch made immediately, even when turning round, by the competitor who has been subjected to the offensive action, is valid

So My question is based on the last part of the above sentance... Both are offensive actions, yes?

[tdwg83]

I believe that the rule is you are entitled to a immediate riposte if you have successfully parried the attack. Even if your opponent is already past. Two qualifying things: You must successfully parry, and it must be immediate. That sometimes means the only available target is the back not you get to hit their back.

In the case of attack/couterattack fleches, neither is entitled to a riposte and remises are out of the question if you have already passed as they probably wouldn't be considered immediate.

[oiuyt]

Actions must begin before the halt to score. That's true whether it's a riposte, a remise, or an attack.

If the action has not yet started when the pass occurs it's out of time.

The OP sure seems to be talking about actions which begin after that point in time, hence Noodle's comment.

Rory- the riposte must have started before the halt (pass) in order to have any validity. A riposte has no special status here not enjoyed by attacks, counter-attacks, remises, etc. The soft halt is what allows ANY of the above to score.

Okay, let's assume there's some miscommunication and the question being asked is about actions that started before the pass and arrive after it.

In this case I would say (based on description and without having seen the action in question) that BOTH fencers passed the other.

Taking the sentence prior to the one Erik seems to find relevant, we find "a touch made after passing his opponent by the competitor who has made the passing movement is annulled."

No touch.

-B

[noodle]

??? Which part of the initial post are you finding incorrect?

t.21 Displacing the target and ducking are allowed even if during the action the unarmed hand comes into contact with the strip.
It is forbidden to turn one’s back on one’s opponent during the bout. Should such an offence occur, the Referee will penalize the fencer at fault as specified in Articles t.114, t.116, t.120 and any touch scored by the fencer at fault is annulled.
When a fencer goes past his opponent during a bout, the Referee must immediately call ‘Halt’ and replace the competitors in the positions which they occupied before the passing took place.
When touches are made as a fencer passes his opponent, the touch made immediately is valid; a touch made after passing his opponent by the competitor who has made the passing movement is annulled, but the touch made immediately, even when turning round, by the competitor who has been subjected to the offensive action, is valid

So My question is based on the last part of the above sentance... Both are offensive actions, yes?

When a fencer goes past his opponent during a bout, the Referee must immediately call ‘Halt’ and replace the competitors in the positions which they occupied before the passing took place.
When touches are made as a fencer passes his opponent, the touch made immediately is valid; a touch made after passing his opponent by the competitor who has made the passing movement is annulled, but the touch made immediately, even when turning round, by the competitor who has been subjected to the offensive action, is valid

i bolded the appropriate section.
as others have already stated, you do NOT get the "right" to initiate an immediate attack when your opponent passes you.

what this rule does say you can do: continue your attack or riposte that you started BEFORE the passing occurred. if you're not in the middle of the attack or the riposte or the parry when your opponent passes you, you don't get to turn and hit them. you only get to turn and hit them as a part of the continuation of the attack that was in progress when they fleched and moved past you.

so to apply this rule correctly to your situation: if A fleches and then B fleches, both pass before their actions are finished, the action stops there. if they stop before they pass, or don't pass on the first miss of the fleche and initiate another action, before passing, who gets the touch depends on the action at hand. neither, however, have any innate right to turn and hit their opponent if they're past just because the other one fleched.

[fencerbill]

The question comes up whether it is parry riposte or parryriposte, a single action?

If you are fleched against and successfully parry must you start your riposte before the passing?

Yes, there is a halt at the passing but if you have started your riposte before the passing there seems to be general agreement that if your prompt, unhesitating riposte arrives you are awarded a touch.

But can you hold your parry until any light by them would be disallowed and then promptly, unhesitatingly riposte while turning?

Or is this another case where you have to see it happen before you can tell?

[dekko]

Curious the questioners definition of 'failed attacks' in this situation. Everytime I get a question of how would I call an action my answer is and will be 'it depends'. Since I didn't see it happen I can't give my opinion. If your saying the attacks failed because they passed I would suspect no touch for either, reset on strip and go again. If the attacks failed because the ref felt their turn was over, too many steps on the fleche but the fencers are still in front of each other.....

Seems the question is a little disjointed but if I may make a suggestion;

The ref should determine where and when the attack failed then the response from the(sounds/seems like a) counter attack failed, is there an oppotunity to remise legally and still get a touch. A defender does get a 'shot' after an attacker has passed but there qualifers for that shot and if it would be allowed as a touch or not. Also, seems as though there is confusion between the cause of the halt and when halt is to be said. In this case they are very different. In this case, potantially, the halt is caused well before it should be said. Again, not seeing the action, this is a best guess based on what is written.

[oiuyt]

But can you hold your parry until any light by them would be disallowed and then promptly, unhesitatingly riposte while turning?

Let me rephase a bit. If I change what you're attempting to say, please correct it and I'll reanswer.

Can a fencer parry, hold the parry until after the pass/halt occurs, then initiate a riposte and have the riposte score a touch?

No.

The riposte, as with all other offensive actions, must start prior to the halt to be valid.

-B

[fencerbill]

Let me rephase a bit. If I change what you're attempting to say, please correct it and I'll reanswer.

Can a fencer parry, hold the parry until after the pass/halt occurs, then initiate a riposte and have the riposte score a touch?

No.

The riposte, as with all other offensive actions, must start prior to the halt to be valid.

-B

Let's say we are fencing Epee, and you and I have fenced Epee, but maybe not for about 8 years or more.

You fleche against me, which would indicate impatience on your part since you didn't usually have to fleche against me to get a hit.

And say I parry, must have happened at least once in our several bouts.

But If I leave my parry to riposte, you will probably remise and get the touch. But if I hold my parry until it is too late for you to remise (until the millisecond you "passed") and then promptly and without hesitation riposte while turning, you expect the referee to disallow my touch?

[KD5MDK]

No, he expects the referee to be slightly inaccurate in a very traditional fashion as to when the riposte began.

[Tavataar]

But if I hold my parry until it is too late for you to remise (until the millisecond you "passed") and then promptly and without hesitation riposte while turning, you expect the referee to disallow my touch?

as was said many times before:

if, in my mind as the ref, i call halt BEFORE you start your riposte, then i would not award the touch. if i felt that your riposte started before my halt, and landed after, then yes, i would award you the touch since the action began before the halt.

holding a parry does not reserve you the right to riposte. i would call what you are describing more of a bind, since you arent worrying about RoW.

[LordShout]

you expect the referee to disallow my touch?

Yes, assuming the referee has perfect knowledge of the situation, IE actually knows that the ripost began after the passing, it is not the action of parrying that gains one right of way, it is the parry followed by an immediate riposte that gains the right of way. The instant the riposte begins is when you gain RoW, and thus gain the right to hit your opponent with one continous attack even if he happens to pass you, waiting until he is passed you loses this right.

Epee makes no difference excepting of course that many poor epee refs might not really understand this situation or have watched the action close enough.

[samh]

I don't think either parry or riposte have anything to do with the above situation. Your opponent gets one chance to hit you as you run past them as long as it is "immediate" (whatever that means). I think that's all there is to it.

For example if someone starts a fleche from far away the defender could do a parry and then would have the opportunity to do as many ripostes/remises as they want before the pass and then 1 extra as long as it starts before the pass (and are we all sure it has to start before the pass?).

[peet]

There are a bunch of statements so far in this thread that probably sound ok in conversation, but are not, strictly speaking, correct.

As oiuyt has said on many occasions (some in this thread):

When passed by your opponent, you don't "get one riposte". You get to finish any action that you began before the pass. You also don't "get one chance to hit". You get as many chances as you can initiate before the pass.

The halt when your opponent passes you is exactly the same as any other "soft" halt. Actions that begin before the halt may finish, actions that begin after may not, of course.

It may be helpful to look at it this way: When one fencer passes the other, the fencer subjected to an "exception" to the usual rules re: before/after halt is not the passee, it is the passer. That is to say: For the passee, this halt is like all others. No need to qualify it. For the passer, this halt is different: actions that finish after the pass may not score.

So, to speak to the OP, the convention when both fencers pass each other is to consider both fencers to be the "passer", and so neither gets the touch.


And for fencerbill:
You don't have to wait for your opponent to pass in order to riposte safely, even in epee. You just have to wait till their tip passes you. You still have the time between that and when their body passes you to initiate your riposte. A really good epee ref will distinguish between a parry that is held until after the pass, and a riposte that begins before the pass.

cheers!

-p

[annacattiva]

as was said many times before:

if, in my mind as the ref, i call halt BEFORE you start your riposte, then i would not award the touch. if i felt that your riposte started before my halt, and landed after, then yes, i would award you the touch since the action began before the halt.

I would clarify the bolded sections to say "If the halt occurs before..." and "the halt". The halt is a function of the fencing action, not how fast the ref opens her mouth.

Anna

[erik_blank]

For some reason, I have a distinct rememberance of a phrase directly relating to Foil that said in some form or other ~ The Referee shall not call halt too son to allow for the imediate response by the person being attacked...
Or somehting to that extent. I can no longer find this phrasing inthe current rules. Was it perhaps in a referees directions somewhere?