Conductive bib design for foil?

[Qbranch]

Elsewhere on the forum there are plenty of comments on the recently-approved (FIE) conductive bib in foil. Yet the design of a new mask that would meet this requirement seems to be in dispute. Aside from the many interesting proposals on this site I have not yet encountered a clear reference to any official design approved by the FIE. I gather that the Italians initially pushed for the change and I am wondering if they had also put forth a proposal for a mask design. Were design specs ever discussed or approved? So far my searches on the FIE and FIS sites have produced nothing.

[oiuyt]

http://www.fie.ch/download/letters/2...0REG%20ANG.pdf

Proposal 2 from the Italians.

-B

[Qbranch]

oiuyt - Thanks.

[fencerbill]

I have no fluency in French. But does the diagram show conductive Lame fabric on the inside of the mask? "Tissu Metallisse"

This, to me, is a mistake because it will lead to Lame fabric in contact with skin.

I don't understand the need for conductive fabric so far from the edge of the inside of the mask.

Perhaps it is just my poor French.

[Purple Fencer]

I don't understand the need for conductive fabric so far from the edge of the inside of the mask.

Perhaps it is just my poor French.

Contact with the lame, perhaps? Although if they go with a cord, it's redundant....and one more area that can fail at control.

if they don't need it in sabre, I don;t see whay they need it in foil.

[oiuyt]

The lamé material on the inside of the bib is a loose flap, rather than stitched onto the bib. It appears that the idea is that the flaps will stay in contact with the vest, regardless of head position.

The proposal also mentions the "benefit" of the new timing in that it gives time for the hit to press the bib against the vest before triggering a light.

-B

[dekko]

The proposal also mentions the "benefit" of the new timing in that it gives time for the hit to press the bib against the vest before triggering a light.

-B

Wow. I've been in fencing a long time and heard some really dumb things but this leaps into the top 5. Not what oiuyt says, and not shooting the messanger, but what was said by whomever about the new timing and bib being target. This has truely come full circle.

For those needing clarification call 1-800-UNBELIEVEABLE!!

[Got_Fenced_In]

Yeah, I have to agree with Dekko-- This is crazy.

[cbcarey]

I am new to these forums, so I keep waiting for someone to reveal that this is all just a joke aimed at the new guys. Someone.... Please?

[fencerbill]

When I first looked at the diagram, it set me to wondering whether this was an indirect dig at the Leon Paul X-Change mask. So it will be interesting if the adaption to the X-Change will be a 12 mm barrier of insulating plastic material set back from the aluminum grooved moulding. In which case fencers using the X-Change may have a minuscule advantage over those using other masks.

It seems to be a very mechanical translation. It would be very nice to get a more colloquial version. Although it did seem to me that they were thinking in terms of a change that would be friendly to fencers with existing masks.

From a practical stand point there will be problems with making a conversion from existing masks or a scheme that will be amenable to swapping back and forth between Foil and Epee.

For one thing there will either be a lot of hand sewing or a search for sewing machines that will let you sew close to the cage of the mask.

Or you will have to take the bib off the cage, do the sewing with almost any sewing machine and then put the bib back on the cage, not a job for any Tom, Dick and Hairy that comes down the road. It took me a while, practicing on my own masks, before I felt very confident about doing so. And I don't think Tim, Ye Olde Armourer, looks forward to doing it in volume either.

There were some sentences indicating the proposal was intended to be fencer friendly, if I understood the English version correctly. And that original manufacturers could make and sell kits to convert their existing masks.

But it won't be a case of a single Universal Conversion Kit with large volume production in China and sold to everyone. Probably at best a conversion kit for each manufacturer, if not for each model mask from a manufacturer or even a kit for every size of each model from each manufacturer.

I wish I understood the Italian proposal better. It might mean that they intended that it would be possible to have a modification held in place only by Velcro, which would allow for a Foil/Epee convertible mask. Don't know how well that would stay in place during a bout.

In principle there might be a convertible mask with the Foil Lame held in place with a zipper, less likely to be displaced during fencing. But the Hennie Pennies could well object to that, or Velcro, because "It might catch a blade". I think it could be done safely but there might be a slight disadvantage for Epeeists in that some touches could result that would not with existing masks.

Convertible masks might work well enough for schools, clubs or multi-weapon fencers. But it would take an accommodating attitude on the part of the FIE and national governing bodies.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I am new to these forums, so I keep waiting for someone to reveal that this is all just a joke aimed at the new guys. Someone.... Please?

I was hoping too. And then I got an email forwarded to me that originated from Sharon Everson. And Sharon is incapable of joking. : (


EDIT: Correction: The email was actually from Denise O'Connor, but that actually doesn't change much about my post....

[KD5MDK]

It might mean that they intended that it would be possible to have a modification held in place only by Velcro, which would allow for a Foil/Epee convertible mask. Don't know how well that would stay in place during a bout.

Cover the entire (conductive surface section) of the bib with very strong velco*. Cover the entire back of the conductive patch with the same strength velcro. That should stay in place decently well.


* What's the unit of stickiness for velcro?

[fencerbill]

Cover the entire (conductive surface section) of the bib with very strong velco*. Cover the entire back of the conductive patch with the same strength velcro. That should stay in place decently well.


* What's the unit of stickiness for velcro?

I agree that more Velcro increases resistance to movement. But not necessarily resistance to peeling off.

Velcro does vary in strength, specially from source to source. I believe it is no longer protected by patent.

However, Velcro is typically not very flexible. A mask completely covered with Velcro would be very stiff. Even more so if it was adhesive backed Velcro. With 2 layers of Velcro over the whole surface, that would be a very stiff bib.

While your idea might help with conversion of masks for Foil fencers, it would make things worse for Foil/Epee fencers who would still want to convert a mask back and forth. Leaving the loop version of Velcro over the whole bib for use in Epee would make it more likely that the same action would result in a touch, leaving the hook version on the whole bib would be worse.

It is hard to think of any way to to make a convertible Foil/Epee mask that would not make it more susceptible to Epee touches. Which the fencers may be willing to put up with.

[oiuyt]

However, Velcro is typically not very flexible. A mask completely covered with Velcro would be very stiff. Even more so if it was adhesive backed Velcro. With 2 layers of Velcro over the whole surface, that would be a very stiff bib.

All the better for the manplate contingent... takes away what could become a bit of soft target.

-B

[french grip foilist]

Nooooooooooo I thought my coach was joking!! When does this rule come into effect, 2009 right. Just in case I missed it will there be detachable mettalic bibs or am I going to have to buy a new mask.

[KD5MDK]

It depends on where you are. At the current moment, the rule is scheduled to take effect in the US never. That will probably change after the next Board Meeting or two, at which point a useful answer will be available.

[erik_blank]

And just when do you think the next meeting might be? I realize that the charter requires a specific number of meetings per year, and that there are 'ad-hock' meetings also... So, any idea when?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

http://www.fie.ch/download/letters/2...0REG%20ANG.pdf

Proposal 2 from the Italians.

-B

Little further down the letter, notice the "scenario" about cramping, where a hypothetical Chinese fencer is leading an Italian fencer for the Gold medal in foil, but cramps up, is denied the 10 minute injury treatment, and loses...with Roch and IOC boss Rogge watching in horror.

With the new cramp rules, China goes on to victory.

Anybody wondering if the FIE is a little too fixated about China doing extra well in Beijing?

[Faire]

All the better for the manplate contingent... takes away what could become a bit of soft target.

-B

Actually, my concern is that the neck is a very soft target indeed! I'm concerned that even velcro won't be sufficient protection against aggressive foilists who start tracheotomizing opponents.

The bib will be a proportionally larger percentage of the target area for foil, than it is for sabre or epee. Liability questions arise. I can't see how more accidents will help fencing's public image.

Are any provisions being made to insert a layer of hard plastic into the new electric bibs, or at least allowing modifications to include a protective layer? I realize this won't increase comfortability, but it may help reluctant foilists who are considering switching weapons rather than getting it in the neck.

[CvilleFencer]

I realize this won't increase comfortability, but it may help reluctant foilists who are considering switching weapons rather than getting it in the neck.

No, the only option for foilists is to switch to Nerf fencing. Well that or go join the AFL or the SCA.

Seriously, what weapon would you switch to? In epee you have a blade that is twice as stiff and thick as a foil and it is going to get fleched into your neck. Saber is arguably worse for the "oh, my fragile neck is in danger" crowd.