Amateur Coaches

[jBirch]

Ok, so this is a bit of a rant...

I'm an amateur coach. I'm not going to take my fencers to the Olympics. I'm not going to run the premier club in the nation. I'm not going to invest my life into fencing.

It's a hobby.

It's fun.

Unfortunately, in my area there are some coaches of the Olympic calibre. They are truly fantastic. They can build the most stratospheric fencers on the planet and have a depth of knowledge way beyond encyclopedic. They have studied under grandmasters of the sport for years and spent decades perfecting their technique.

But they also enjoy putting down the amateur coaches and generally making it as difficult as possible to run anything but a professional, full time, club. If you don't know, then you're a dummy not worthy of knowing.

Why is that? Why is it that there are only two types of fencers on our circuit: the scrubs and the superstars? (I'm one of the former, by the way) What place do volunteer, amateur coaches have in the fencing system? Is there a place for fun in fencing or is all fencing about getting to the Olympics? Can you run a credible club and NOT produce world champions?

[noodle]

simple.

the typical club is sustained by the noob fencers. the ones that come, are learning to fence, and pay their fees. those noob fencers won't necessarily understand the difference between coach A, the elite coach, and coach X, the part-time, competent coach. they'll see coach A charging more than coach X, and maybe coach X is more flexible and closer to them. so, they'll go to coach X.

but coach A needs that income, so to prevent his people from flocking to coach X, he has to make sure to set up a disparity, to ensure that he shines higher or is superior in some manner. he has to ensure that the people who don't know fencing know that it is best to fence with him.

that is typically the primary reason for the "tearing down".

[RITFencing]

I think it's because different coaches and fencers have different goals and values.

If Coach A wants to produce world class athletes and thinks that should be the goal of a fencing club, he or she will devote all their time and energy towards that, and when they see Coach B running a club for recreation that is teaching fencing that is not as strong, or perhaps in their eyes incorrect, they sometimes view Coach B as incompetent, or, even worse, as hurting their fencers.

Because Coach B has a different set of criteria than Coach A, when Coach A views Coach B through the lens of their own desires, Coach A sees failure, when it is simply a different game altogether.

My .02, at least.

Nice to see you back around, jBirch; I've missed your posts.

[Durando]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Can you run a credible club and NOT produce world champions?

Of course. But you need to remember that a coach and a club aren't the same things. Too often clubs let themselves go. A lot of thought needs to go into this difference and how to maintain it. If you have a club that you cannot imagine existing without any one coach then what you have really is a fencing boutique which sells competitive results and aspertions thereof.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by jBirch

What place do volunteer, amateur coaches have in the fencing system? Is there a place for fun in fencing or is all fencing about getting to the Olympics? Can you run a credible club and NOT produce world champions?

These are great questions.

I think there is a place for amateur coaches in fencing. At least in the case of the US, the sport is crying out for more coaches and programs. (I'm a little less clear of the situation in Canada and other countries). Amateur coaches fill an important gap in communities that can't support a full time, professional club, and by their very nature expose fencers to the sport at a price that isn't prohibitive.

Where they exist, what makes these amateur programs "credible"? I think that a part-time, amateur club is "credible" when it's run transparently with good organization and good management. This may be simply making sure that the club is always open on the days and places it says it is, and with equipment in place for fencing to occur when the doors do open. A part time program is "credible" when the coaching staff has a base of knowledge and is constantly trying to improve that knowledge, and doesn't mis-represent itself to potential students as more than what it is. These coaches don't need to have been Olympic champions (or the trainers of Olympic champions) but they need to know something beyond how to put a fencer on guard and teach them a lunge, and they should be constantly trying to improve that knowledge.

Unfortunately, at least in the US, a lot of the amateur clubs fail to meet even these criteria (sadly, so do some "professional" clubs). I could tell you about a lot of clubs I've visited where they have opened when the person with the key shows up (whenever that might be). When they open, their equipment is often dirty or broken. I've watched lessons at some of these clubs where the most outlandish things were being taught (one coach told me: "Footwork? I don't teach footwork.").

At least in the US, the excuse for these behaviors have always been "We're an amateur program" or "I'm a recreational coach". It's no surprise to me that these programs get lumped together into a group and ridiculed.

I can't speak for your situation. As a "amateur" coach myself, I've encountered the same things you have. What I have noticed is that the best professional coaches I know have always stepped in and graciously helped make me a better coach and my program a better program -- all without demeaning me or making fun of me.

For me, that's always been the true measure of the word "professional".

AE

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

For me, that's always been the true measure of the word "professional".

By that measure I'm uncertain that you should be considered an amateur.... :)

-B

[Qbranch]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

What I have noticed is that the best professional coaches I know have always stepped in and graciously helped make me a better coach and my program a better program -- all without demeaning me or making fun of me.

For me, that's always been the true measure of the word "professional".

AE

Nicely put.

There will always be room for the 'amateur' coach or instructor who strives for personal excellence, transparency (as Allen suggests) and the improvement of his or her students. In the face of putdowns, especially from people with impressive credentials, it is important for the 'amateur' to remember this.

There have been times when I have seen dedicated and outstanding teachers belittled by internationally-recognized scholars simply because they lacked the glory of a title. This kind of behaviour is not only an affront to those instructors who have rightfully earned the respect of their students... it is an affront to the profession (or vocation in some cases) of teaching. Regardless of any credentials a professional may have such behaviour is inexcusable. So is this also true of the lazy instructor who has lost commitment to teaching and the welfare of his or her students.

I couldn't agree more with Allen's closing words.

[jBirch]

So I'm not alone then. That's a good thing, I guess, though I wish the system weren't structured that way in the first place.

The prevailing feeling I get from coaching around here is that if you're not good enough to produce world class fencers, then you have no business teaching fencing to anyone. It's demoralising to the point where sometimes I just want to give up and go on to other activities where my time isn't wasted and I don't have to put up with professional ridicule as an amateur.

And on that same note, did all of you other amateur coaches have to create your entire fencing curriculum from scratch or did you have a set of lesson plans to get you through the beginner courses in a structured manner? Is there any kind of regional testing standards or is it all just ad hoc competitive results oriented? Ie// if your students are winning then they've attained a certain standard of skill.

I used to be a Cadet instructor (kind of like Junior ROTC) and they had excellent teaching support for their lessons. Same goes for the martial arts groups and the hockey groups and the soccer groups and the baseball groups and the <insert some sport that's not fencing here>. Why does this professional vs. amateur, competent vs incompetent rivalry exist? What can be done to better support our amateur coaches?

[RITFencing]

Allen, great post as always! I really couldn't agree more with any of it.

I particularly like that you differentiate part time/amateur coaches who still work to improve their knowledge and try to teach their students the best that they can, and those who seem stuck in stasis.

[keith]

Originally Posted by jBirch

I used to be a Cadet instructor (kind of like Junior ROTC) and they had excellent teaching support for their lessons. Same goes for the martial arts groups and the hockey groups and the soccer groups and the baseball groups and the <insert some sport that's not fencing here>. Why does this professional vs. amateur, competent vs incompetent rivalry exist? What can be done to better support our amateur coaches?

This is really a question of governing bodies goals & commitments - fencing unlike the other sports you mention doesn't seem to have passed the point where it can run in this way or perhaps the culture of rivalry between coaches runs to deep?

So one is left with a rather large pile of books and the odd deeply buried nugget on boards like this.

Allen is right when he says that the only real hope is getting feedback and advice from better/more experienced coaches.

One further point; as an amateur coach you should be willing to pass on students when they reach a stage of ability (or ambition) that you cannot meet. It is certainly a conversation I have with people, especially when it comes to sabre. I don't think anyone has taken the advice but recognising limits and making students aware of them is important.

[jBirch]

And my comments aren't just about excellent coaching skill from people other then professional coaches. My point is that I am certainly NOT in the same league as the professionals around here. And I'm not even close to the professional-amateur coaches either (like Allen, for example). Nor do I have the desire to take on a second career as a fencing master. For me, it boils down to time and priority. I am NOT going to sacrifice my professional career or my family for a hobby.

I know enough to produce good, knowledgable fencers who enjoy the sport and can be taken to great heights by excellent coaches. But that's as far as both my skill and ambition go. I like getting better, and genuinely find the game fascinating, but I'm not prepared to dedicate my life to fencing. Does that make me unfit to coach?

So the question is, should I shut down the club and walk away? The club is hugely solvent (I think it can run for 20 years without any students on the savings banked). I've created two other coaches and have a third on the way up who can teach beginner lessons in a rudimentary form. If the executive wants the club to continue, it can continue, though it won't produce fencers of the same calibre.

And I'm good at teaching the basics and on instilling a passion for the sport into them. My students are universally able to be picked up and rocketed to the Olympics if they have the desire to seriously train. But they need a coach who can work out all the technical imperfections I've inadvertantly crafted into them at the intermediate level and who understands the game on the advanced level.

I can understand the theory around what's happening in the students, but crafting it into them in a way other then intellectual is beyond my ken currently (and may be completely beyond my ken permanently). I can't convince my better students to go to the better coaches and really improve and I'm certainly not trying to take them away from the real coaches around here. I don't know if it's fair for me to learn and improve my skills on my less-ambitious students.

On a tangent, here's another question: what do you do with students that have surpassed your ability to teach but refuse to move on?

But anyway, I'm currently frustrated. Not with my ability but with the professional ability expected of a fencing coach. So there it all is. Is there a place for people like me in fencing or am I just a waste of fencing space?

[Bryn Ralph]

Continue to deliver what you are currently teaching. There are many amateur coaches who are not intimidated by the so-called professionals. And yet, we amateurs continue to promote the art and science of fencing, with or without credentials. The USFA is decidedly concerned about the status of fencing instructors as well as coaches; the USFA recognises that there are many quality instructors w/o the high-profile credentials.

So, do not despair! Keep up the good work.

[keith]

Originally Posted by jBirch

On a tangent, here's another question: what do you do with students that have surpassed your ability to teach but refuse to move on?

I think you answered this yourself;

Originally Posted by jBirch

Nor do I have the desire to take on a second career as a fencing master. For me, it boils down to time and priority. I am NOT going to sacrifice my professional career or my family for a hobby.

Just because someone has the ability to do something does not mean that it's something they should do, want to do or actually have the commitment to pursue.

It is simply honesty; if you are ambitious go there, if you are happy where you are then I'll be happy to keep working with you - just don't look me up 10 years from now and bend my ear about how you could have been an Olympic fencer!

[epeeslasher]

Originally Posted by jBirch

The prevailing feeling I get from coaching around here is that if you're not good enough to produce world class fencers, then you have no business teaching fencing to anyone. It's demoralising to the point where sometimes I just want to give up and go on to other activities where my time isn't wasted and I don't have to put up with professional ridicule as an amateur.

Those coaches may have world class champions, but how many students have quit the sport because of their attitude? I know I would have stopped fencing for sure if those were the only coaches around. I was lucky enough to start with an 'amateur' coach who showed me that fencing can also be fun, so when I went to those other coaches I already knew that fencing didn't have to be just about getting medals. An impression I might not have had otherwise.

Just remember that there is a lot of attitude out there, the other coaches in the area may ridicule you, but what do your students think about you? If anyone of them started fencing because they thought it might be fun, then your providing them with an opportunity which they might not have had.

[Qbranch]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Why does this professional vs. amateur, competent vs incompetent rivalry exist?

I think this is probably a question of human nature. Those possessed of a generous spirit willingly give of their expertise because they recognize this as a privilege or reward after years of sacrifice and hard work. Others are simply more proprietary and seem to place greater stock in deriding those who appear not to have 'earned' their credentials. I say 'appear', in this case, because these people often make the mistake of putting too much credence in their own judgment of others (a particular irony if they are not especially sociable in the first place). Regardless of the area of expertise the division in question almost always arises whenever pride and a title are involved.

Given the success of your club it seems that the students have clearly signalled their recognition of your efforts.

[Fencergrl]

James, I really hope you don't get discouraged, Canada needs more, not less coaches like yourself. Fencing unfortunately can be very political and back-biting. It doesn't need to be this way, but some people chose to behave in this manner.

I make a real effort in my province not to participate in this behavior and try even harder to not listen to it when it is happening. I know it's a really hard thing to do when the chattering is something that hits you on a personal level.

Illegitimi non carborundum... I know Inq will correct this mock-Latin aphorism but the sentiment is the same..."don't let the bastards grind you down".

Don't let them run you off... next week they'll be b'tching about something else. Relax, take a deep breath and don't take it too personal.

[darius]

On a tangent, here's another question: what do you do with students that have surpassed your ability to teach but refuse to move on?

Try to find a way to grow with them, or encourage them to move on. If you're honest about the fact that you can't push them any more, and they're accepting of that, there's nothing wrong with them continuing to train where you are.

Some would say that's a waste, but ultimately, it's their experience.

But anyway, I'm currently frustrated. Not with my ability but with the professional ability expected of a fencing coach. So there it all is. Is there a place for people like me in fencing or am I just a waste of fencing space?

It's for your students to judge. We like underdog stories- small club in the middle of nowhere makes good. Heck, even if you produced unskilled people who love the sport, or served as a feeder launchpad to greater things, you're still providing a needed service.

It's a shame that there's a perceived divide between "rec" and "elite". I believe that even in the US, where we're growing like a weed, our sport is too small for such divisions. The truly elite fencers/coaches I've had the pleasure of training with or knowing have always been gracious and helpful to the many rec fencers I've known.

After all, shouldn't the divide between the two should be merely one of scale?

darius

[RkfdFencer]

Originally Posted by jBirch

What place do volunteer, amateur coaches have in the fencing system?

As a place for people to be introduced to an incredibly fun activity/sport.

Originally Posted by jBirch

Is there a place for fun in fencing or is all fencing about getting to the Olympics?

Fencing, for me, is all about fun. Competing is another way to have fun and enjoy the sport. This does not prevent one from being competitive and experiencing tournament success.

Originally Posted by jBirch

Can you run a credible club and NOT produce world champions?

Yes. It sounds to me like you are involved with a credible club. It's sad to hear that other coaches are giving you attitude. Like others said, it points to a lack of professionalism on their part. Also, like others pointed out, the measure of your club from its own students is more important than the measure of an outside observer.

The club I am in is, and always has been, primarily a recreational club with some competitive fencers thrown in. Without this club, it is extrememly unlikely that any of these people, myself included, would ever have begun to fence. The 'amatuer' club is just as good of a place to start fencing as any other (this presumes a minimum standard of fencing and operation like what it sounds your club provides).