Amateur Coaches

[MdA]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Continuing this thought...
I would have much more interest in the USFCA if they required an additional certification like ACE... as it is, iirc, they can't even require that coach's also pass the referee's exam... probably because too many of their 'certified' members don't approve of the current style of fencing.

I would agree with Mr. E that a bachelor degree in a related sports field and additional certification like ACE, CPR, and a referees rating should be required for the Prevot and Master certification levels. Vinnie Bradford and I required these (minus the related sport bachelors) for Prevot and Master levels at the Pan American Fencing Academy (PAFA) at Palo Alto College in San Antonio. But, I must admit there was limited demand and we went out of business.

It was nice having PAFA located at a College because we would bring in other sports professionals for things like strength training as Allen suggests...or sports medicine...we just couldn't keep it going...without outside financial support...the program did not pay for itself.

Since this is the "Amateur Coaches" thread I think we should be addressing the Moniteur/instructor level. This is where I think we have the greatest shortage of trained coaches in the USA. This is where we need to get the lawyers, doctors, computer geeks and nerds involved. While the USFCA encourages a referees rating for the Moniteur level, it is not required. To require additional certifications along with the Moniteur/Instructor level would just discourage amateur coaches from entering the education/training/certification cycle....in my opinion...but I may be wrong...what do the forum members think?

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by jBirch

However, if you don't consistently produce highly competitive fencers, you have no place as a fencing coach.

James.

Is that "No place being a fencing coach" or "No respect as a fencing coach"?

Because if you were to say define "highly competitive" as "Top 32 nationally", then (6 weapons x32) there are a maximum of 192 proper fencing coaches in a country, and that's if no coach has more than one student in the 32 of anything.

[darius]

It's quite sweet that so many lawyers, engineers, programmers, and various other nerds are very excited to teach fencing, but they simply aren't prepared properly to do the job in the same way as someone with an actual education in sport.

Perhaps.

Or perhaps somebody with a science background, even if it's not specifically in sport, is able to break down the game in a manner worth consideration, especially to introduce kids to the sport without making them worthless for higher-level coaches to poach?

Here's a question, though, because I'm interested: what education would you consider essential? Jason posted a list of stuff that Czajkowski wants you to know to get your Master's from Katowice, but there are even quality professional coaches who couldn't answer all of that.

I've just read "Motor Learning: A Behavioral Emphasis", and it's got some good stuff going on, although much of it concentrates on previous research and isn't incredibly applicable - you've got to have some patience to get to the parts on skill acquisition, which are all at the end. Wulf's "Attention and Motor Learning" is quite interesting too, although HK misprinted my copy, so I'm missing some of the juicy bits.

Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning? Sure, that's some good stuff.

A bit of psychobabble + common sense? Gilbert's "Winning Ugly" and Galwey's "Inner Game of Tennis".

Of course, there are a few fencing-specific books that are interesting: Czajkowski, Beck/Barth, Szabo, Epee 2.0.

Other stuff: Eric Cressey's "Magnificent Mobility" DVD.

What does a 4-year Kines degree magically confer that poring over functional anatomy, motor learning, and surfing PubMed for fun won't? (Other than the fact that somebody tested you on it ...)

Heck, I'll make and maintain a list if people want; that's as good a place as any to start.

darius

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by MdA

While the USFCA encourages a referees rating for the Moniteur level, it is not required. To require additional certifications along with the Moniteur/Instructor level would just discourage amateur coaches from entering the education/training/certification cycle....in my opinion...but I may be wrong...what do the forum members think?

It may discourage people from pursuing the training/certification at an even low level, but I think that showing some exposure to modern fencing rules interpretation is essential. Canidates should be able to show that they've taken the USFA referee seminar at very least, if not actually pass the referee exam (I thought that use to be a requirement?). If you can't teach your sport in the context of the current rules interpretation, then I'm not sure you should be certified to teach.

If you want to teach fencing in a more classical style, then I think that you should have to articulate that during the certification process, or pursue a different path through certification altogether.

Allen Evans

[MdA]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Canidates should be able to show that they've taken the USFA referee seminar at very least, if not actually pass the referee exam (I thought that use to be a requirement?). If you can't teach your sport in the context of the current rules interpretation, then I'm not sure you should be certified to teach.
Allen Evans

Again, I agree with you. When coaches ask me what they should study to pass the rules questions on the USFCA's Moniteur online written test...I tell them to complete the FOC referee test study guide....and answer/look up every question in the USFA rule book. It works...and in the process...it makes them a better coach!

[MdA]

On September 1, 2008 the new USFCA President Abdel Salem will take office. He is the Head Fencing Coach at the US Air Force Academy. He is an Olympian and he coached Olympian and NCAA Champion, Seth Kelsey. He was on the USFA Coaches College staff and is responsible for a lot of the training material. He also served as Chairman of the USFCA Certification and Accreditation Board (CAB).

He has given the new chairperson of the CAB, Rob Handelman (Halberstadt FC, San Francisco) the task to deliver a Moniteur/Instructor Education and Training program in one year. It will be coming to a fencing center near you soon...a couple are already scheduled on AskFred in September. The next step will be to develop a Fencing Master Education and Training program….there is a lot of good info provided here but I think we agree we need more than a reading list, self-study, and an exam.

There are a lot of very good ideas in this thread but I encourage you to get involved. The next time you are at a NAC, walk up and introduce yourself to President Salem.

http://www.fencing.net/forums/member...alem-head.html

He is a nice guy. He will give you a job, if you want one. These ideas are great but they are only going to get done for American coaches through volunteer power. He has volunteered to give a lot of his time and effort to help all American fencing coaches.

If you can’t get to a NAC to introduce yourself and volunteer, send me a PM and I will tell you how to get involved with the Professional Development, College, Club, or Finance committees.

[MdA]

Oh…and by the way…Salem was also a medical doctor….but, I wouldn’t recommend that as a prerequisite for a Fencing Master…..at least not yet!!!

[jBirch]

This:

Originally Posted by MdA

These ideas are great but they are only going to get done for American coaches through volunteer power. He has volunteered to give a lot of his time and effort to help all American fencing coaches.

+ This:

Originally Posted by MdA

I would agree with Mr. E that a bachelor degree in a related sports field and additional certification like ACE, CPR, and a referees rating should be required for the Prevot and Master certification levels.

+ This:

Originally Posted by MdA

Oh…and by the way…Salem was also a medical doctor….but, I wouldn’t recommend that as a prerequisite for a Fencing Master…..at least not yet!!!

+ This:

Originally Posted by Mr.Epee

It's quite sweet that so many lawyers, engineers, programmers, and various other nerds are very excited to teach fencing, but they simply aren't prepared properly to do the job in the same way as someone with an actual education in sport.

= Piss off and thanks for all the fish.

James.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

It's quite sweet that so many lawyers, engineers, programmers, and various other nerds are very excited to teach fencing, but they simply aren't prepared properly to do the job in the same way as someone with an actual education in sport.

From my experience, most local health clubs require a four year degree to become a trainer, or at minimum certification from ACE (not a piece of cake). Correct instruction in a complex sport like fencing should take that + a sport specialized training on top.

This is exactly what I'm talking about...According to this attitude, nobody but a professional should be teaching fencing.

I should close the club and go do something I'm better qualified to teach. I can certainly do better things with my time if fencing doesn't want it.

James.

[MdA]

Originally Posted by jBirch

This is exactly what I'm talking about...According to this attitude, nobody but a professional should be teaching fencing.
James.

James, I am trying to point out that there is a path from amateur to professional. There are a variety of ways to get there...the majority of our members in the USFCA are amateur coaches.

I have never said they should not coach fencing. In fact, they need to be coaching to be on the path. Some folks get to a place on the path and stay there...and that is OK.

For those that want to pursue a professional career...we provide a list of AAI recommended criteria.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by MdA

James, I am trying to point out that there is a path from amateur to professional. There are a variety of ways to get there...the majority of our members in the USFCA are amateur coaches.

Requiring a sport degree for prevot and maitre will exclude pretty much all of your amateur coaches. Which means that while there is A path from aide-moniteur to maitre, it is unattainable for amateur coaches.

The thing that I dislike about this strategy, and the fairly prevalent attitude that goes along with it, is that it does not address the problem of TURNING amateurs into professionals.

Fundamentally, I see it as a TRAINING problem, as darius was mentioning, rather then a CERTIFICATION problem, as Mr. E seems to believe.

I have never said they should not coach fencing. In fact, they need to be coaching to be on the path. Some folks get to a place on the path and stay there...and that is OK.

For those that want to pursue a professional career...we provide a list of AAI recommended criteria.

Mr. E's comments, and your tacit approval of them, did, to me at least. Especially the comment about lawyers, engineers, programmers and other nerds. I, being a software professional in my paid life.

The implication to be concluded from both of your comments together is that unless one is a professional, dedicated fencing trainer, one has no business teaching fencing to anyone.

Which is a fairly common attitude and one that I started this thread specifically to address.

James.

[MdA]

Originally Posted by jBirch

....
The implication to be concluded from both of your comments together is that unless one is a professional, dedicated fencing trainer, one has no business teaching fencing to anyone.

Which is a fairly common attitude and one that I started this thread specifically to address.

James.

I did not intend to imply the above in any of my posts. By posting the info on the USFCA's new president...I was trying to show that many fencers often take a winding road approach to coaching...often switching jobs...before coaching. Many leave coaching for awhile and then return.

I want them all to be coaches....but we all need a little help and info along the way. I think that is what this thread is really about.

[Allen Evans]

The demand of fencers in the US far exceeds the supply of professional fencing coaches in the US. And certainly exceeds -- by an even larger amount -- the supply of competent and ethical professional coaches in the US.

Until the supply of these coaches in the US meets that demand, the US will have to rely on amateur coaches, just as it does for a majority of other sports.

I my first post on this thread, I wrote:

Where they exist, what makes these amateur programs "credible"? I think that a part-time, amateur club is "credible" when it's run transparently with good organization and good management. This may be simply making sure that the club is always open on the days and places it says it is, and with equipment in place for fencing to occur when the doors do open. A part time program is "credible" when the coaching staff has a base of knowledge and is constantly trying to improve that knowledge, and doesn't mis-represent itself to potential students as more than what it is. These coaches don't need to have been Olympic champions (or the trainers of Olympic champions) but they need to know something beyond how to put a fencer on guard and teach them a lunge, and they should be constantly trying to improve that knowledge.

I haven't read anything here that makes me think that this statement needs to be changed.

Allen

[IvorDarcy]

I consider myself an "amateur" amateur coach. I have no coaching qualifications but have fenced off and on for the last 30 years (probably 10-15 years actual fencing experience) which got me "hired" as a coach at the very small club I attend. I make it clear from the outset that in no way am I qualified to get anyone to a "high" standard of fencing but I can teach them enough to enter local competitions. One of our students fenced in Summer Nationals and placed in the top 50 which I consider to be reasonably good considering there are no "qualified" coaches at the club and we only have about 10 members.
I don't think one needs to be a professional or hold a sports degree in order to teach fencing. However, I do think that if you are going to teach fencing then you should at least have a few years of fencing experience and know the rules (at least the ones pertaining to the weapon you are teaching) and understand the basics of refereeing. It would be nice for every club to have someone who is certified in first aid/cpr ( I just happen to be certified in both ) but the chances of that are fairly slim.
I strive to learn as much as I can but it really has to be done through books and whatever I can find online due to my work schedule and my budget. There can never be too much training/learning but there can certainly be too little.
I think MdA and the USFCA are doing a splendid job at encouraging ( not forcing ) amateur coaches to obtain certification. Once funds and time permits, I will most certainly pursue certification just for the satisfaction in knowing that what I am teaching is correct.
Are there "amateur" coaches out there who are better than "certified" coaches? I dare say there are but are you more likely to check out the club with the certified coach or the non-certified coach first? Personally, I look at the club atmosphere first. I prefer an easy going, family friendly sort of club where everyone gets along rather than a club that looks like it is run as a "para-military" organization.
On a final note. My view of an amateur coach is someone who takes a raw beginner, piques there interest in the sport, gets them involved in local/national competitions and encourages them to seek out a "professional coach" if they wish to take their fencing into the top echelon of the sport.
Sorry the post so long. Just my tuppence worth.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

The demand of fencers in the US far exceeds the supply of professional fencing coaches in the US. And certainly exceeds -- by an even larger amount -- the supply of competent and ethical professional coaches in the US.

Until the supply of these coaches in the US meets that demand, the US will have to rely on amateur coaches, just as it does for a majority of other sports.

I my first post on this thread, I wrote:



I haven't read anything here that makes me think that this statement needs to be changed.

Allen

Something is profoundly missing from this post...

Yes, a lot of people might like to have a fencing coach. A lot of people might like to have a quality fencing coach.

I enjoy eating fillet mignon . I would really like to eat it frequently, however unless I, and others, are willing to pay enough to justify the farmer growing the cow, I haven't really created demand. I've expressed a personal taste. Chicken tastes good too... it's a reasonable substitute. I can easily afford to pay enough to justify the manufacture of a chicken.

Willing and able to pay is a defining element in this demand equation.

[Allen Evans]

My turn to be puzzled. I have NO idea what point you're making here.

The demand for fencing coaches is, in some way, artificial?

Simply being able to pay for fencing lessons does not necessarily grant you the opportunity for lessons?

Or?

AE

(Sorry, I'm a little dense this morning)

[Mr Epee]

I have the benefit of it being early evening. :-)

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to clarify what I said.

[MdA]

I think I know what Mr. E is getting at...correct me if i am wrong. Just becasue a fencer wants a highly qualified coach....does not necessarily mean the fencer (or parents) are willing to pay for a high quality coach.

I have been in this situation many times...the fencer wants many high level lessons...but can't pay for them.

I have even seen situations where parents will chose bargain basement club fees over choosing the right environment for their child to develop.

I think this is due to a lack of education by the fencers or their parents...they simply don't know how to judge the quality of a coach.

I have also seen the opposite extreme. Fencers and parents willing to pay extremely high prices for a low quality club/training environment.