Amateur Coaches

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by jBirch

Do you produce fencers that are nationally competitive? If you are a certified master, does that virtually assure that your students will be sucessful on the competition circuit?

James, I can assure you (and anyone else on the Board) that MdA produces very fine (and well behaved) fencers, and is a very good coach. He's not just someone who knows about good coaching "in theory" -- though he knows that as well.

AE

[MdA]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

...I've found that credentials have had absolutely no impact on the level of professionalism I've found amoung fencing coaches I've encountered. I've summed up my own thoughts on the subject on this page.

AE

I went back to read Allens link today. I have read it before...very good stuff.

Every one has a right to teach fencing...even noobs teach fencing to other fencers.

I just want to encourage good coaches to seek certification as a means for self-improvement. If you are wondering how to improve as a coach, consider certification as a way to broaden your experience.

Consider membership in the USFCA. We need new volunteers to make improvements....can't be the same people all the time.

[MdA]

Originally Posted by Jason

I've given a few Moniteur exams for the USFCA and am quite certain that I've failed applicants who would pass easily with some examiners (and fail just as easily with others).

....I haven't sat on a board for a Master's exam, but can only assume the situation would be similar....

I invite you, Jason, to volunteer for service on the USFCA Certification and Accreditation Board (CAB). As soon as elections are complete in August, the board will appoint additional members.

Are you a current USFCA member?

[Jason]

Originally Posted by MdA

I invite you, Jason, to volunteer for service on the USFCA Certification and Accreditation Board (CAB). As soon as elections are complete in August, the board will appoint additional members.

Are you a current USFCA member?

I suspect my membership has lapsed... I certainly haven't gotten a Swordmaster in a few months.

Originally Posted by Allen

I feel that I should be able to walk into an exam with a board I don't know, and know what I'm going to be tested on.

Here's a list of things that you need to know for the Polish Fencing Masters exam. Every candidate is supplied with this list. (I'll note that the entire process of becoming a fencing master in Poland is significantly different than in the US and involves going to school for 2 years and a series of courses, papers, and exams. This is just the list of things you need to know for the final oral examination.)

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

James, I can assure you (and anyone else on the Board) that MdA produces very fine (and well behaved) fencers, and is a very good coach. He's not just someone who knows about good coaching "in theory" -- though he knows that as well.

AE

I surmised as much, especially as the objective measurement of coaching ability is whether or not that coach produces fencers that win.

And if your fencers win, that goes a long way towards mitigating the tension with other coaches. However, if you don't consistently produce highly competitive fencers, you have no place as a fencing coach.

James.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by Jason

Here's a list of things that you need to know for the Polish Fencing Masters exam. Every candidate is supplied with this list.

That's a little more ambitious than I had in mind as a starting platform, though I'm glad you supplied it (it looks like I have some research to do).

AE

[MdA]

Originally Posted by Jason

I suspect my membership has lapsed... I certainly haven't gotten a Swordmaster in a few months.

... (I'll note that the entire process of becoming a fencing master in Poland is significantly different than in the US and involves going to school for 2 years and a series of courses, papers, and exams. This is just the list of things you need to know for the final oral examination.)

I agree the program is very well organized in Poland. Many of our best Masters in the USA were trained in Poland under Professor Czajkowski.

USFCA co-sponsored a clinic by him in NYC last year.

Latest Swordmaster just came out. Memberships year for the USFCA starts Aug 1 just like the USFA...if you send it in now you won't get credit for next year.

6 members of the CAB are elected for staggered 6 year terms. 3 new members are being elected this summer....including Yves Auriol, former VP, will be rejoining the CAB.

Up to 3 additional members may be appointed by the new CAB chairman this Fall in order to ensure coverage in all regions.

Jason send me a PM if you are interested.

We have integrated a lot of Czajkowski's work in the new exam requirements...Vinnie is responsible for a lot of the new CAB criteria...I agree this is very thorough..and we could use more of this type detail.

As I said before, in previous posts the requirements for the exams for Moniteur, Prevot and Master are posted under the files section, after member login on the USFCA website. updated 6/18/06

[MdA]

Maybe we should move this discussion to the "Coaching Certification" thread....sorry.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by MdA

USFCA co-sponsored a clinic by him in NYC last year.

I'm fairly certain that Jason was already aware of that clinic....

Originally Posted by MdA

As I said before, in previous posts the requirements for the exams for Moniteur, Prevot and Master are posted under the files section, after member login on the USFCA website. updated 6/18/06

Mmmm, those are publicly accessible, without need for the "members only" section.

-B

[MdA]

There are additional documents available to members. The files tab is not accessible unless you sign in.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

I'm fairly certain that Jason was already aware of that clinic....

Hmmm.... It sounds vaguely familiar...

Almost as though I was the one who organized it...

[MdA]

Charles R. Schmitter of Michigan State
The first meeting leading to the formation of the United States Fencing Coaches Association was held in 1941 at the first National Collegiate Fencing Championships, held at the Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio.

According to Charlie Schmitter, who served as the association President from 1952-54, “Nothing of any importance developed there (at this first meeting) because of a lack of rapport between the professionals and the amateur coaches who were worried about their amateur standing.”

[MdA]

Originally Posted by jBirch

.... What place do volunteer, amateur coaches have in the fencing system? Is there a place for fun in fencing or is all fencing about getting to the Olympics? Can you run a credible club and NOT produce world champions?

I think it is time for this thread to get back to the original questions...in particular...the questions above.

Amateur coaches are the meat and potatoes of American fencing. This is where most people in America find fencing for the first time.

If you look at the current USFA budget woes...you might think it is all about the Olympics. We overspent in attempts to get Olympic medals...now I worry that the few programs for amateur coaches...like the CC might suffer.

You can run a good club, have fun and not produce Olympic champions. With the USFA budget crisis and our own energy crisis, we all might be doing a lot more of this in the next few years. Traveling to national and international competitions may become a luxury most of us just can't afford.

We will need to rely on our local resources to enjoy and promote good fencing.

[MdA]

Originally Posted by Jason

...
Here's a list of things that you need to know for the Polish Fencing Masters exam. Every candidate is supplied with this list. (I'll note that the entire process of becoming a fencing master in Poland is significantly different than in the US and involves going to school for 2 years and a series of courses, papers, and exams. This is just the list of things you need to know for the final oral examination.)

Just going back and looking at this list. Who in the USA can teach the subjects on this list? I know that Vinnie Bradford in San Antonio is very familiar with much of this material. But she is not currently teaching fencing coaches.

Perhaps, I can convince her to participate in some of our clinics in the future, if there is enough interest.

[keith]

Originally Posted by MdA

Just going back and looking at this list. Who in the USA can teach the subjects on this list?

Given that fencing has to wait until page two for its first mention I suspect there are a great many people who could cover much of the list.

[Allen Evans]

I've been doing some research on Jason's list, and first few pages are heavy on sports science, kinesology, physiology, and so forth. Almost any strong sports science department in a college could teach to these questions, though few of them would be able to slant the information towards fencing -- there just isn't enough research (in English) on the subject.

I suspect that most of the information about body mechanics (and associated subjects) involvement with fencing in the US is either wrong, or second hand. For instance, I know a few coaches who still advocate that weightlifting is not applicable to fencing. These are not high level coaches, to be sure, but if I know of a few, it means that there are more out there.

Fencers have to think of their sport AS a sport. In the US, we still aren't there yet. I'd love to get more information about the subjects on Jason's list.

Allen Evans

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

I've been doing some research on Jason's list, and first few pages are heavy on sports science, kinesology, physiology, and so forth. Almost any strong sports science department in a college could teach to these questions, though few of them would be able to slant the information towards fencing -- there just isn't enough research (in English) on the subject.

I suspect that most of the information about body mechanics (and associated subjects) involvement with fencing in the US is either wrong, or second hand. For instance, I know a few coaches who still advocate that weightlifting is not applicable to fencing. These are not high level coaches, to be sure, but if I know of a few, it means that there are more out there.

Fencers have to think of their sport AS a sport. In the US, we still aren't there yet. I'd love to get more information about the subjects on Jason's list.

Allen Evans

Continuing this thought...

This is partially what drives me truly crazy about all the programs the MdA and others associated with the USFCA have been bantering about for the past x years.

Sport Science in the US is highly advanced. There are literally tens of thousands of folks graduating with 4 year degrees every year from hundreds of very good sport science, biomechanics, athletic training, coaching sport programs... and graduates of those programs start at the same place as Joe off the street in terms of the coaching certification process... despite the fact that they are much better equipped to succeed and contribute to the betterment of the sport.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

It's quite sweet that so many lawyers, engineers, programmers, and various other nerds are very excited to teach fencing, but they simply aren't prepared properly to do the job in the same way as someone with an actual education in sport.

From my experience, most local health clubs require a four year degree to become a trainer, or at minimum certification from ACE (not a piece of cake). Correct instruction in a complex sport like fencing should take that + a sport specialized training on top.

I would have much more interest in the USFCA if they required an additional certification like ACE... as it is, iirc, they can't even require that coach's also pass the referee's exam... probably because too many of their 'certified' members don't approve of the current style of fencing.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

I've been doing some research on Jason's list, and first few pages are heavy on sports science, kinesology, physiology, and so forth. Almost any strong sports science department in a college could teach to these questions, though few of them would be able to slant the information towards fencing -- there just isn't enough research (in English) on the subject.

I suspect that most of the information about body mechanics (and associated subjects) involvement with fencing in the US is either wrong, or second hand. For instance, I know a few coaches who still advocate that weightlifting is not applicable to fencing. These are not high level coaches, to be sure, but if I know of a few, it means that there are more out there.

Fencers have to think of their sport AS a sport. In the US, we still aren't there yet. I'd love to get more information about the subjects on Jason's list.

Allen Evans

Continuing this thought...

This is partially what drives me truly crazy about all the programs the MdA and others associated with the USFCA have been bantering about for the past x years.

Sport Science in the US is highly advanced. There are literally tens of thousands of folks graduating with 4 year degrees every year from hundreds of very good sport science, biomechanics, athletic training, coaching sport programs... and graduates of those programs start at the same place as Joe off the street in terms of the coaching certification process... despite the fact that they are much better equipped to succeed and contribute to the betterment of the sport.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

It's quite sweet that so many lawyers, engineers, programmers, and various other nerds are very excited to teach fencing, but they simply aren't prepared properly to do the job in the same way as someone with an actual education in sport.

From my experience, most local health clubs require a four year degree to become a trainer, or at minimum certification from ACE (not a piece of cake). Correct instruction in a complex sport like fencing should take that + a sport specialized training on top.

I would have much more interest in the USFCA if they required an additional certification like ACE... as it is, iirc, they can't even require that coach's also pass the referee's exam... probably because too many of their 'certified' members don't approve of the current style of fencing.