Amateur Coaches

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

Okay... I'm going to assume we both agree that hard hits happen, excessive force shouldn't and refs as well as fencers don't always get things right as they are developing.

Let's assume, you go to court and win. The USFA now has to do something. How do you right a rule regarding this kind of thing without it being subjective? And open the the ref's interpretation? See what I'm getting at? Rules already exist to deal with this.


-SNIP-

For this reason, I think arguing the whole "excessive force" thing is wrong. It is subjective.

-SNIP-

Johnny, we have rules in place. I don't think we need to add more layers to these rules.

Snips and bold emphasis by me.

Now, if one would try ones hand at enacting rules which are not subjective, and yet let the worst brutality be punished consistently, one possibilty springs immediately to mind:

Capteurs.

I am not saying that they are necessarily a good thing, nor that they should be preemptively put in to deal with this. However, I posit that they can be a good answer should any force - which is strong enough to make us do what they want - outside fencing demand that we do something, but leave it up to us to figure out exactly what.

Capteurs have a solidly bad reputation in fencing, but it was quite some time since their use was discontinued, and I am confident that I could redesign them in such a way so that they would not have the old problems, yet are sufficiently sensitive to hard hits so that they are real deterrents.

I am a Mechanical Engineer, after all.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Mr Epee]

Allow me....

I think Johnny Blade is just having a laugh.

It's well done, but ultimately I think it's a prank...

There is a little too much insight in some portions, and way too little in others.

Time to move along the dusty trail .

[Delta]

People often forget where they are from and where they started. After learning something and knowing it to the point that it seems natural and easy, slighting someone who is not as well-versed/trained can happen and does. I'm not saying that sort of behavior ought to be condoned, but anywhere you go where there are a group of people who know they are at the top of anything and develop that attitude of "I'm better than you" because they are in that particular field. The issue is sometimes they confuse their skills and knowledge with the actual person. Don't take it personally, just go to the mattresses.

When the OP referred to circuit, do you mean at the national level? Div II and III exist you know....I think you know the answers to last of your questions. Credible clubs can have different types of reputation. Some are solely instructional/developmental, others are better known for their competition-orientated training. Although I think well-rounded is the best way to go with circles.

And since I have the time, and hopefully you do too, I have an Native American folktale I remember reading when I was younger. Here's a summary/what I remember.
Long ago, when gods still walked the earth and trees still spoke to humans, a young man set out from his tribe to seek and kill the three great plagues of his people: hunger, darkness, and death. The young man found all three huddled in a corner in a cave and he approached the first two and they all explained why they should live. The young man finally approached death and asked why the spirit he could not see, but only feel ought to be spared. Death said, " Without me, there would be no renewal, no new life." And blahblah the young man learned his lesson and went back home.

You, my youngish, amateurish coach, have a mission to rejuvenate and continue to forge the future's history and evolution!

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by Delta

When the OP referred to circuit, do you mean at the national level? Div II and III exist you know....I

There are circuits outside of the US. He was referring to his local circuit.

[normanwiebe]

Hey James, there are more coaches in Alberta that appreciate what you and all of us amatuer coaches do, than the odd one who gives you grief. Let it go, and stick to what you know is right.

[MdA]

Why does the thread “Amateur Coaches” get 4,016 views and the thread “Coaching Certification” gets 1,530? Are we a bunch of amateurs out here?

[Fencergrl]

Perhaps because this thread has been around much longer and has it's own flaming section for a few pages?

[MdA]

Your right. I forgot about Johnny's rant in the middle of it. I hope he starts posting in the professional threads. We will get more exposure

[Welted 24/7]

As far as I can see it, the fact is that not everyone can learn from elite coaches, and not all elite coaches are interested in teaching fencers who aren't already elite. I've had lessons from coaches who have fencers on points lists and gotten nothing out of it, because ten minutes into the lesson, they're looking at their watch to see when it's going to end and not paying any attention to what they're supposedly teaching me. On the other hand, I've had lessons from people nobody has ever heard of that have been ridiculously valuable to my development as a fencer.

The point is, different people learn best in different ways from different coaches. So, jbirch, I'm behind you continuing to do your thing 100 percent. We NEED people like you out there, because without guys like you for us unwashed masses, fencing as a whole is doomed.

[MdA]

Originally Posted by Welted 24/7

I've had lessons from coaches who have fencers on points lists and gotten nothing out of it, because ten minutes into the lesson, they're looking at their watch to see when it's going to end and not paying any attention to what they're supposedly teaching me.
.... without guys like you for us unwashed masses, fencing as a whole is doomed.

Again I will pull this thread back to the topic of “Coaching Certification” (see other thread in this forum). I don’t think a certified professional Fencing Master or Maître ďArmes would treat you in this manner during your lesson. Do you know if the coach who treated you like this was certified? By what organization? These are important things for any fencer, parent, or coach to understand.

There are coaches who train national point holders who are not certified Masters. Some are former high level fencers who have no professional training as a coach.

My opinion, is that a certified professional would not be looking at his watch during your lesson and yawning. A true professional understands that he holds the future of our sport in his hands everyday. If amateur coaches seek professional training and certification our beloved sport is not doomed. If fencers seek out certified coaches and put their trust in them, the future of our sport looks even brighter.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by MdA

I don’t think a certified professional Fencing Master or Maître ďArmes would treat you in this manner during your lesson.

You, sir, have been allowed to develop a rather strange view of the world.

This is a fairly common situation.

I'm very glad that you take your credentials so seriously, and strive to be an ambassador for others who have submitted to the same credentialing process... but the title itself is no guarantee of quality or service provided to individual students.

[Allen Evans]

I'll stand with Mr. E. here on all points (except, perhaps, I'm not sure if you have a "strange view of the world"....Mr. E. using his analytical skills to jump to a conclusion much earlier than I would).

I've found that credentials have had absolutely no impact on the level of professionalism I've found amoung fencing coaches I've encountered. I've summed up my own thoughts on the subject on this page.

AE

[MdA]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

... but the title itself is no guarantee of quality or service provided to individual students.

The same is true of doctors and lawyers. You have to find a good one...but I would only go to one that is licensed and has a diploma.

[Welted 24/7]

Originally Posted by MdA

Again I will pull this thread back to the topic of “Coaching Certification” (see other thread in this forum). I don’t think a certified professional Fencing Master or Maître ďArmes would treat you in this manner during your lesson. Do you know if the coach who treated you like this was certified? By what organization? These are important things for any fencer, parent, or coach to understand.

There are coaches who train national point holders who are not certified Masters. Some are former high level fencers who have no professional training as a coach.

My opinion, is that a certified professional would not be looking at his watch during your lesson and yawning. A true professional understands that he holds the future of our sport in his hands everyday. If amateur coaches seek professional training and certification our beloved sport is not doomed. If fencers seek out certified coaches and put their trust in them, the future of our sport looks even brighter.

I'm not gonna name names, but you can rest assured that this person is certified. Like I said, some coaches just don't want to bother with people who aren't already great. It happens, and if they're not interested without a certification, they're not going to be interested WITH a certification.

Maybe it's my failing as a student for not being able to learn something from that lesson. But as far as I'm concerned, you've failed in your job as a coach if you can't adjust your teaching to different skill levels.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Mr. E. using his analytical skills to jump to a conclusion much earlier than I would).

AE

I was simply addressing the specific statement that linked MdA credentials to professional performance/behavior ... that's all... I'm guessing that MdA doesn't actually hold that position and misspoke.

Originally Posted by MdA

The same is true of doctors and lawyers. You have to find a good one...but I would only go to one that is licensed and has a diploma.

and yet...

Originally Posted by Welted 24/7

I'm not gonna name names, but you can rest assured that this person is certified. Like I said, some coaches just don't want to bother with people who aren't already great. It happens.

There is also a question of reciprocal commitment... the experience isn't the same for a one and done type lesson for some noob you're not really responsible for.... and a committed competitive coach-student relationship.

[Welted 24/7]

There is also a question of reciprocal commitment... the experience isn't the same for a one and done type lesson for some noob you're not really responsible for.... and a committed competitive coach-student relationship.

No, you're right about that. But when you've set out from the start with the coach that you have very little experience and are looking to join a club in order to get better, you would think they would do whatever they could to keep you. My commitment to this coach was proportional to his interest in my development as a fencer, and if this was some kind of "test" to see if I was dedicated and would come back, then I'd say he's the one who failed it, not me. Am I ever going to be a national champion? Probably not, but this is the kind of experience that makes people turn away from the sport forever. I didn't, but how many people has the USFA lost because of coaches who can't swallow the idea that everybody's got to start somewhere?

[Hauptman]

Originally Posted by MdA

The same is true of doctors and lawyers. You have to find a good one...but I would only go to one that is licensed and has a diploma.

I would go further in that you need to find one that is good for you.

Different instructors will have different strengths, and use different methods. You need to find the one that meets your needs as a fencer.

[MdA]

http://und.cstv.com/sports/c-fenc/mtt/kvaratskhelia_gia00.html"]and yet...[/url]

Gia K has a bachelors degree from the Georgian Institute of Sport...and some graduate work. He was a member of the Soviet and then Georgian national foil team.

This, as you probably know, is not equivalent to an AAI MdA. The AAI requires you to meet a board of three Masters....and they must be AAI (USFCA) Masters. The certification is also in all three weapons.

Gia as you also may know is a foil specialist...in my opinion a "Foil Master" as it were but alas not a MdA, yet

There is good news on the horizon.

The AAI and USFCA will approve a single weapon Masters diploma at its Executive Committee meetings in October 2008. I will be encouraging Gia to certify ASAP afterwards.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by MdA

Why does the thread “Amateur Coaches” get 4,016 views and the thread “Coaching Certification” gets 1,530? Are we a bunch of amateurs out here?

Is there a problem with that?

James.