Disarming Opponents

[RenegadeStorm88]

I was in a novice tournament recently, So the rules were relaxed, and something happened, which i dont know if it's legal or not. I lunged and missed my opponent, and as i recovered back our bell guards caught and i pulled the foil from his hand, now i've had bell guards catch before, but id never disarmed someone that way. So what i was wondering is is this legal? could it be attempted? or was a penalty not applied because it was a novice tournie?

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by RenegadeStorm88

I was in a novice tournament recently, So the rules were relaxed, and something happened, which i dont know if it's legal or not. I lunged and missed my opponent, and as i recovered back our bell guards caught and i pulled the foil from his hand, now i've had bell guards catch before, but id never disarmed someone that way. So what i was wondering is is this legal? could it be attempted? or was a penalty not applied because it was a novice tournie?

It's not a penalty, but there's no advantage to it. One of the fencers being disarmed causes a halt. It's a soft halt, so a simple attack in progress against that fencer can still score, but no new action can begin.

Most swashbuckling ways of disarming your opponent (such as snagging his guard with yours) could not constitute part of an attack, as fencing defines the term, and so anything done after the disarming would be a new action and so would be after the halt. Exceptions would be beat attacks, press attacks, froissments, and prise-de-fer attacks. These are bona fide attacks that may potentially disarm your opponent as part of the action that scores.

However, you can't make a preparatory attack on your opponent's blade, disarm him, and then launch your attack. In such a case, your attack would be after the halt. If you make a beat attack -- correctly executed -- and your opponent drops his weapon on the beat, your attack can still score -- too bad for your opponent; he shouldn't have dropped his weapon. But if you make a beat just for the hell of it, say "Hey, look, he dropped his blade!", and then attack, that attack is after the halt.

[RenegadeStorm88]

Ah, so no matter what i do, it'd be in a different phrase, thus after the hault?

[peet]

Originally Posted by RenegadeStorm88

Ah, so no matter what i do, it'd be in a different phrase, thus after the hault?

(This us only a terminology distinction, but: )

Not a different phrase, just a different action. A phrase (usually) consists of multiple actions, e.g. "attack, parry, riposte and remise". That would be one phrase with four actions in it.

But yeah, most likely in the situation you've described, the scoring action would begin after halt, and so not count.

HTH

-p

[RenegadeStorm88]

Thanks for correcting me, im new to this all ^_^

[Shi no Tenshi]

I have only ever twice scored on a disarm, and the intention was never to disarm. However, it's amusing when it happens. One of those was a bind, the other a beat.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Goldgar

However, you can't make a preparatory attack on your opponent's blade, disarm him, and then launch your attack.

In a world where all referees are good ones who know the rulesc and apply them properly, this might be so...

You can however get an idiosyncratic referee who will give ( or withhold )points for the oddest things.

[tkexi991]

Originally Posted by Shi no Tenshi

I have only ever twice scored on a disarm, and the intention was never to disarm. However, it's amusing when it happens. One of those was a bind, the other a beat.

I have scored a few times on counter parry 4 (or 7) riposte. Enough to be consistently cool, not enough to bother trying it all the time.

[Nolano]

Well... I'm an epeeist, so this is a bit different... But I was taught that, as Goldgar says, if you disarm someone and then hit them in the same action, you can get the point. otherwise, its halted. I used to use a variant on a disarm a lot. I would bind the blades, and twist my hand outwards to essentially "flick" their blade away, allowing me to hit them on the back of the hand or wrist. I've been shown two different disarms by my coaches, and one of them was like that, except you spun their blade all the way around, throwing it off to the left, and out of the effective area.

[Phaeton]

Originally Posted by Nolano

I've been shown two different disarms by my coaches, and one of them was like that, except you spun their blade all the way around, throwing it off to the left, and out of the effective area.

Until...they disengage and finish...and you lose the point due to doing silly stupid and pointless blade work?