11-19-2007, 12:03 PM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: bay area
Posts: 109
| What Stops the Action?
At the recent JO qualifier, my son scored a DE touch before halt was called by the director but after his 3-minute timer went beep,beep,beep. The director did not award the touch saying it was after time.
My son asked the director why believing only the verbal halt stops the action but the director stuck with his call.
Who is correct? By the way, the director is nationally rated. | 
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11-19-2007, 12:04 PM
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#2 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,296
| Quote:
Originally Posted by duel mom  At the recent JO qualifier, my son scored a DE touch before halt was called by the director but after his 3-minute timer went beep,beep,beep. The director did not award the touch saying it was after time.
My son asked the director why believing only the verbal halt stops the action but the director stuck with his call.
Who is correct? By the way, the director is nationally rated. | the referee
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11-19-2007, 12:07 PM
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#3 | | Member
Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: On the go!
Posts: 53
| In a perfect world the scoring machine is turned of when the clock expires.
Frustrating? Yes.
Fair? Yes.
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11-19-2007, 12:59 PM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005 Location: Over there -->
Posts: 3,871
| And in fact, the new scoring machines with attached clocks DO turn off when time expires. The ref was right. | |
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11-19-2007, 01:22 PM
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#5 | | The Judge
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,200
| Quote:
Originally Posted by duel mom At the recent JO qualifier, my son scored a DE touch before halt was called by the director but after his 3-minute timer went beep,beep,beep. The director did not award the touch saying it was after time.
My son asked the director why believing only the verbal halt stops the action but the director stuck with his call.
Who is correct? By the way, the director is nationally rated. | the referee is correct. your son is wrong. verbal "halt" should be the only thing that will stop the fencers from fencing, but the verbal "halt" does not necessarily correlate to the actual end of the fencing phrase.
for example, in epee, what if someone jumps in really close, accidentally bumps their opponent, and then manages to land a valid hit before a "halt" is verbally said for the bump? the answer is, nothing happens because the "halt" was called for the bump and the touch came in after the halt, no matter when the "halt" actually leaves the mouth of the referee. that lag time is not free time to try and score a touch. | |
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11-19-2007, 02:57 PM
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#6 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Philly
Posts: 655
| Quote:
Originally Posted by noodle the referee is correct. your son is wrong. verbal "halt" should be the only thing that will stop the fencers from fencing, but the verbal "halt" does not necessarily correlate to the actual end of the fencing phrase. | Quoted for emphasis. There are a lot of fencers who do not understand that the verbal 'halt' is not the official halt of the fencing action, but only the referee signaling the same after the fact. And only the referee can determine if an action was started before or after the halt.
Also, I think it should be mentioned here, just in case there is any confusion: No actions can score after time has expired, period. (Time is a "hard" halt)
Last edited by Fechter1; 11-19-2007 at 05:25 PM.
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11-19-2007, 04:10 PM
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#7 | | Just Joined
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 19
| Ooooo...very nice fine point. Newbs like me take note....fencing wisdom in this thread.
Nice to know guys (the difference between the actual halt and the verbal signal that it has passed)!
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11-20-2007, 03:18 PM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 3,220
| Quote:
Originally Posted by duel mom At the recent JO qualifier, my son scored a DE touch before halt was called by the director but after his 3-minute timer went beep,beep,beep. The director did not award the touch saying it was after time.
My son asked the director why believing only the verbal halt stops the action but the director stuck with his call.
Who is correct? By the way, the director is nationally rated. | Held up as evidence why attending the referee clinic is a good idea for every fencer and parent thereof who wants to do more than just fence in the club.
And also held up as evidence of why the HECK did his coach not teach him this?
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11-20-2007, 03:29 PM
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#9 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
Posts: 8,732
| Quote:
Originally Posted by oso97 And also held up as evidence of why the HECK did his coach not teach him this? | That might be the very problem... His coach might have taught him this, the other way.
LOTS of coaches out there that don't know the rules.
-B
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11-20-2007, 06:57 PM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Northern England
Posts: 234
| Too right. How many times have I heard "but my coach said", closely followed by my advice to the fencer to tell his/her coach to read the rule book. | |
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11-20-2007, 09:38 PM
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#11 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: May 2000 Location: The valley of the -hot- sun, NorCal
Posts: 3,184
| Quote:
Originally Posted by oiuyt LOTS of coaches out there that don't know the rules.
-B | Most coaches out there don't know the rules.
Shouldn't there be some kind of requirement of a referee rating for people who want to be accredited as a coach by the USFCA?
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11-20-2007, 10:14 PM
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#12 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
Posts: 8,732
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Originally Posted by veeco Shouldn't there be some kind of requirement of a referee rating for people who want to be accredited as a coach by the USFCA? | At least for a while they were talking about such a requirement. I think even enacted it, although I don't see any mention of such prowling the public portions of their website. Possibly it just isn't adequately advertised, possibly it's been dropped again as a requirement.
Closest I could find was that Moniteur candidates need to know "How to earn a USFA referee’s rating (Moniteurs are encouraged to learn to referee and to take the USFA referee test:"
Of course there's no requirement for coaches to be accredited by the USFCA.
-B
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11-27-2007, 06:55 PM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: near Boston
Posts: 3,261
| On a lighter note, if the verbal halt prevailed, people who stuttered could not referee effectively.
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11-28-2007, 01:39 PM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Next to Mr. Coffee.
Posts: 215
| Quote:
Originally Posted by fencerbill On a lighter note, if the verbal halt prevailed, people who stuttered could not referee effectively. | Neither could a mute referee call halt. A hand signal for halt exists but you rarely see it used with any consistancy. Theoretically, you can referee without any verbal commands if you effectively use all the hand signals.
Has anyone ever known of a referee unable to speak that only used hand signals?
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11-29-2007, 06:45 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Northern England
Posts: 234
| Me, at the Junior Quadrangular last year - England, Scotland, Wales and the Barbarians (don't ask - too complicated even for Brits). Severe case of laryngitis - no sound whatsoever. Epee was OK but foil was a bit interesting. The kids were lovely, bless them. Felt so ill I lay down on the floor and went to sleep during the presentation. | |
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11-29-2007, 08:00 PM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: near Boston
Posts: 3,261
| It is doable but perhaps it is still desirable to have some distinctive sounds.
The fencers go so much from the intonation.
The usual sequence is "On Guard -- Ready -- Fence", with emphasis on the Fence, and they start fencing.
At about 330 PM one loonng day, I was down to "On Guard -- Fence", and they were off and fencing.
Well, at least one time, it was "On Guard -- Ready" (with emphasis) and they were off fencing anyway. Neither got an advantage so, what the heck, just let them fence.
I was thinking of PE's problem and wondered whether you could just substitute another distinctive, emphatic sound for the "Fence" and "Halt". Perhaps a referee's whistle. You do have the hands horizontal for "On Guard" and then rotate to vertical for "Ready", but it would be better if they didn't have to watch you for "Fence" and "Halt". Although for laryngitis that bad, the puff for the whistle might get tough.
Perhaps even a rubber duck to squeeze.
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11-30-2007, 05:23 AM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Northern England
Posts: 234
| Quote:
Originally Posted by fencerbill
Perhaps even a rubber duck to squeeze.
| Oh yes, please! | |
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12-13-2007, 10:20 AM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 117
| Quote:
Originally Posted by oiuyt That might be the very problem... His coach might have taught him this, the other way.
LOTS of coaches out there that don't know the rules.
-B | Not only do lots of coaches not know the rules but some of them who know the rules "very well" have some very interesting interpretations of them. A.K.A one coach who insisted that one foot off the side of the strip could not push his/her fencer over then endline and thereby award the opponent a touch. Only two feet off the back of the strip could do that. He had "been a coach for 10years" and "knew the rules". Read the rulebook. Everyone. Parents, coaches, fencers, and even friends of fencers. Take the couple hours one day when you're bored and read the rulebook.
-P
Last edited by foillion; 12-13-2007 at 10:21 AM.
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