Back to basics

[Morion]

Over the years I have developed some bad habits in fencing (foil). The main problem is that I find myself making large strong movements when they aren't necessary. Using my wrist or elbow when I should be using my fingers. In an effort to train myself out of this I have just started practicing with a French grip. I'm curious if anybody else has tried this and had any success when they switch back to their regular grip. There aren't too many tournaments scheduled for my area right now so it will be a while before I need to cross back. Will this help or am I just wasting my time?

[jeff]

That's not a bad idea at all. You shouldn't be using large motions regardless of the grip, but using a French grip in training can help break the habit of making large motions with the wrist and elbow and replace with more finger control. When I was actively competing, my coach at NYFC (Semyon Pinchasov) had me take lessons with French and use pistol for bouting as usual. Not everyone needs to work with French to improve their finger control, and it's probably not for everyone, but it may very well work for you.

[Lemonaide]

J'ai noté de tard, un tendancy pour faire de petits petits gestes minuscules, même parmi la population générale ; peut-être ils souhaitent être escrimeur... Je pense qu'il dépend de ceux foyer d'oeil ; et également leur mécanique de corps, aussi bien que leur intellegence. L'essai de recycler de grand à n'est trop peu aucun bon.

[TBean]

Do you take lessons or drill with others? Or does your club have a station for you to practice blade actions (we have an arm with a weapon). If so, try taking a square of 2x4, hold it against your body with your elbow and practice taking the blade while not dropping the square. No extentions but it is GREAT practice for only using your fingers to move the blade. Gets even tricker when you have to move and not drop the square. My coach and I work this every once in awhile to be sure I am not swinging my elbow too much to help aviod injury.

[Inquartata]

But is finger control even possible with a pistol grip? Aren't your fingers kind of fixed in a grip, necessitating the use of the wrist and arm instead?

[TBean]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

But is finger control even possible with a pistol grip? Aren't your fingers kind of fixed in a grip, necessitating the use of the wrist and arm instead?

Even with a pistol grip actions can and should be done with mostly the fingers. You are correct in that there tends to be a bit more wrist action with the pistol grip but moving your arm to disengage is just a bad habit. With the pistol grip people often hold the weapon too tight making it impossible to disengage with just the fingers.

[RITFencing]

I've tried making one of my foil students take lessons with a french to develop better finger use. I actually much prefer to start kids (or adults for that matter) on a pistol grip, but in this case he was developing a real death grip and making actions with the wrist, elbow and shoulder. It's working out for him, little by little, not so much because the french really encourages use and feel of the fingers as some people tout, but in my opinion because it's different than what he's used to, and harder to use those fingers. With that added difficulty, he really knows what is and is not being used.

So yeah, I think it might work out for you. I would also recommend just going very slow when you do these drills. Speeding up is one of the easiest things the human body can do; once a motion is learned moving slowly, doing it faster is not as big of a deal.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by TBean

Even with a pistol grip actions can and should be done with mostly the fingers. You are correct in that there tends to be a bit more wrist action with the pistol grip but moving your arm to disengage is just a bad habit. With the pistol grip people often hold the weapon too tight making it impossible to disengage with just the fingers.

I find that this is really true with the french grip in just as many cases.

[DangerMouse]

I agree. However, I start people with French grip because when they crank down on the girp, the tip shoots up in the air and makes everything fall apart. It's possible to fence pretty well with a death grip on a pistol grip, but not with a death grip on a French grip.

[garyhayenga]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

But is finger control even possible with a pistol grip? Aren't your fingers kind of fixed in a grip, necessitating the use of the wrist and arm instead?

No, not at all. The standard actions can and should be performed with just the fingers almost exactly has performed with a french grip.

Excellent distance should provide that with proper timing small precise finger movements are all that are necessary to provide sufficent leverage for any efficiently executed parry, beat or disengage.

So with a french grip you *must* keep good distance, or it doesn't work.

Nothing else *should* be necessary, but if you have made a slight mistake in distance, or your opponent has fooled you momentarily, the extra power and leverage available with a pistol grip can sometimes give you a chance to get yourself out of a jam.

Sadly many fencers routinely use the extra leverage all the time, when it should be for emergency use only.

gary hayenga

[jeff]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

But is finger control even possible with a pistol grip? Aren't your fingers kind of fixed in a grip, necessitating the use of the wrist and arm instead?

Adding to what Gary Hayenga and TBean said: Finger control isn't achieved, regardless of which grip it is, by moving fingers to different positions on the grip. Except when posting, you don't move around on the French either. Instead it's done by fine motor control in the fingers to exert pressure on the grip. It all comes down to which muscles you are using to control and move the weapon: are you contracting muscles in the fingers, the wrist, or the elbow.

[tchwojko]

I've practiced with French grips when my point control was getting out of hand. I ended up losing lots of touches while I got things straightened out, but that's what practice is for.

I've also moved to a Belgian grip from the Visconti, because it gives me quicker feedback when I'm using my hand instead of fingers.

[RenegadeStorm88]

Originally Posted by tchwojko

I've also moved to a Belgian grip from the Visconti, because it gives me quicker feedback when I'm using my hand instead of fingers.

what do you mean by "Quicker Feedback"??

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by DangerMouse

I agree. However, I start people with French grip because when they crank down on the girp, the tip shoots up in the air and makes everything fall apart. It's possible to fence pretty well with a death grip on a pistol grip, but not with a death grip on a French grip.

Interesting point.

To continue the threadjack, though, I've noticed that with most of the newbies I have are age 8-10, and aren't yet developed enough strength wise to really control a french grip weapon.

Have you had any problems with this, or do they develop that strength quickly, or do you not deal with kids that age, or something else?

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by garyhayenga

So with a french grip you *must* keep good distance, or it doesn't work.

Nothing else *should* be necessary, but if you have made a slight mistake in distance, or your opponent has fooled you momentarily, the extra power and leverage available with a pistol grip can sometimes give you a chance to get yourself out of a jam.

Sadly many fencers routinely use the extra leverage all the time, when it should be for emergency use only.

gary hayenga

I half agree with this. I would say that the majority of competitive French grip fencers, at least in America, post with them all the time when there are advantages to shifting the grip around.

I also certainly think that with a French grip, or with any grip, keeping and controlling good distance is vital.

However, your post seems to suggest that there is one "correct distance" and that things like posting are there to help make up for problems in it. There certainly are fencers who just use it to cover some problems with their game, but I feel that a fencer who really knows how to use their weapon well will simply find a different "correct" distance while posting with it, so as opposed to it being for an emergency only, they simply adjust their game to take advantage of the different characteristics of the weapon.

[tchwojko]

Originally Posted by RenegadeStorm88

what do you mean by "Quicker Feedback"??

It quickly becomes noticeable. My hand will cramp up, my hand will tire more quickly, and/or my point will go further astray. With a Visconti, I can get away with it a while longer before it's evident that I'm using more than just my fingers.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

To continue the threadjack, though, I've noticed that with most of the newbies I have are age 8-10, and aren't yet developed enough strength wise to really control a french grip weapon.

Have you had any problems with this, or do they develop that strength quickly, or do you not deal with kids that age, or something else?

I can't speak for DangerMouse, but I teach a *lot* of 8-10 year olds, and I haven't noticed any problem with them controlling french grip foils -- so long as the foils are mounted with #2 (or sometimes #0) blades. Or I suppose I should say, I haven't noticed any problems that I think would be solved by using a pistol grip.

[DangerMouse]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Interesting point.

To continue the threadjack, though, I've noticed that with most of the newbies I have are age 8-10, and aren't yet developed enough strength wise to really control a french grip weapon.

Have you had any problems with this, or do they develop that strength quickly, or do you not deal with kids that age, or something else?

I coach at the university level so this isn't really an issue. However, this year we have a lot of girls with small hands and I've had to adjust some of my methodology to help them get all of their fingers on the grip

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by jeff

Adding to what Gary Hayenga and TBean said: Finger control isn't achieved, regardless of which grip it is, by moving fingers to different positions on the grip. Except when posting, you don't move around on the French either. Instead it's done by fine motor control in the fingers to exert pressure on the grip. It all comes down to which muscles you are using to control and move the weapon: are you contracting muscles in the fingers, the wrist, or the elbow.

Yes, but my point was that with paddles or stems or whatever in your palm and your thumb wrapped around a prong and so forth the limits of motion possible with fingering alone are greater with a pistol grip than with a French, are they not? That is, if you want to, say, disengage, you will only be able to drop the point so far using the fingers alone, and to move the blade farther you will have to bring the wrist or arm into play, yes?

With a French grip, you can let the point drop down or rise up to complete verticality simply by finger play. Can you do this with am orthopedic grip?

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

With a French grip, you can let the point drop down or rise up to complete verticality simply by finger play. Can you do this with am orthopedic grip?

Yes, depending on the grip. Some encourage finger play more than others.