Supplements for Teenagers

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

About 50% of my total calories come from protein.

And you're basing this unhealthy behaviour on what???

Seriously if you're telling the truth about this, this it is very hard on your liver and kidneys. The human body isn't designed to process that much protein and it will affect your ability to absorb essential nutrients (especially calcium).

I know you won't take my advice DFP, so please talk to a dietitian or doctor or some other professional with medical training. What you are doing (no matter how much you work out) will do serious damage to your body if you continue.

[Cry_Me_A_River]

Originally Posted by Tripod

DIY Protein

The odd joy of being a 17 yo boy.

Suggesting that the boy drink his own fluids?

[journalmom]

Originally Posted by noodle

you can also fail by drinking milk or eating chicken that have hormones used to promote growth given to them. or by eating too many poppy seed muffins.

you should always know what you're eating, supplement or not.

That's why we try to eat organic so that we are not ingesting unknown growth hormones that animals have been given. I know about poppy seed bagels and muffins but I never thought about what kinds of substance could be in those protein powders that aren't allowed. Hmmmmm.

I guess I'll just give him various kinds of animal meats. Yuk! I can see all of us gaining weight but not him.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

And you're basing this unhealthy behaviour on what???

Seriously if you're telling the truth about this, this it is very hard on your liver and kidneys. The human body isn't designed to process that much protein and it will affect your ability to absorb essential nutrients (especially calcium).

I know you won't take my advice DFP, so please talk to a dietitian or doctor or some other professional with medical training. What you are doing (no matter how much you work out) will do serious damage to your body if you continue.

I've talked with my dietician.

The majority of doctors agree that high protein diets are only unhealthy for those with pre-existing kidney or liver disease.

Fencing is not my main sport these days. I eat for succes in my current sport/discipline. Its really a coincidince that I've found it works well for fencing, too.

I'm not a doc. I just base my reccomendations off of what has worked for me and given me results.

What do your results as an athlete say about your nutrition/training?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by journalmom

That's why we try to eat organic so that we are not ingesting unknown growth hormones that animals have been given. I know about poppy seed bagels and muffins but I never thought about what kinds of substance could be in those protein powders that aren't allowed. Hmmmmm.

I guess I'll just give him various kinds of animal meats. Yuk! I can see all of us gaining weight but not him.

I'm pretty sure there are not any NCAA banned protein powders. Last time I checked, protein powders don't contain steroidal agents. They're made out of a cheese making by-product.

There ARE rules against NCAA coaches and programs distributing protein powder, creatine, amino acids, ect.

Why?

I think its because the price of such supplements can often put a smaller and not-so-well funded school at a disadvantage

There are many plausible reasons. Somebody with an NCAA connection might be able to give a better answer.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

The majority of doctors agree that high protein diets are only unhealthy for those with pre-existing kidney or liver disease.

You'll be hard pressed to find a doctor who thinks a diet that is 50% protein is healthy for anybody. <Shrug>... do what you like, I don't expect you to listen because you've always been openly hostile towards me. I'm just suggesting that you get your information from reliable sources, as you're dealing with your health.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

You'll be hard pressed to find a doctor who thinks a diet that is 50% protein is healthy for anybody. <Shrug>... do what you like, I don't expect you to listen because you've always been openly hostile towards me. I'm just suggesting that you get your information from reliable sources, as you're dealing with your health.

This is america baby. Our doctors think all sorts of crazy ****.

[Fencergrl]

Let me put it to you this way... cats are carnivores the recommended amount of protein in their diet is at 30% (the remaining 70% is water, fibre, vegetables, and various minerals and nutrients). http://www.peteducation.com/article....&articleid=701

Let's assume for a moment that the pet food companies are off the mark. Think about their natural diet. They eat a mouse (herbivore) part of what they eat is protein, but they get calcium from the bones, vegetable matter from the intestines, fur, skin (fibre, fat, trace minerals) etc... It's not all protein even if all they eat all day and everyday. As a carnivore, they might be eating 50%-80% of their diet is protein. The rest is essential nutrients and water their body requires to stay alive.

To suggest that 50% of your diet is from protein (and should be) without a doubt is damaging your body in both the long term and short term. You would have to be missing a lot of the other nutrients we all need to stay alive. Since carnivores don't eat that much protein, then logic dictates that our bodies (as omnivores) are not designed to deal with that much protein.

So let's agree that 50% is an exaggeration or a miscalculation for a moment. Perhaps your diet is really 25%-30%, when the recommended protein amount is 10%-12% (and many are healthy eating less). Lets assume you're trying to build lots of muscle, so you doubled or tripled the recommended protein intake.

If we were still hunter/ gatherers we would be eating less protein than we do today and our bodies are made that way. Nature is nature. By nature, we eat mostly fruits and vegetables and protein when we can get it. Evolution changes things but not everything. We still have basically the same digestive system we've always had.

In the short term, studies have shown this poses no harm to the body. I think we are in agreement here. In the long term many reputable studies show that high protein diets have serious long-term consequences. So here you may be wrong or I may be wrong.

Is it worth the risk? You seem you seem to think so for the short term gain (muscles, weight loss... whatever). I've seen too many people over the years suffer permanent damage to their bodies from making those kind of decisions, so I have a different perspective.

Like I said... you're unlikely to take my advice, or anyone else who contradicts you because you are getting positive reinforcement from your actions. I just think it's worth hearing the other side.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

Let me put it to you this way... cats are carnivores the recommended amount of protein in their diet is at 30% (the remaining 70% is water, fibre, vegetables, and various minerals and nutrients). http://www.peteducation.com/article....&articleid=701

Let's assume for a moment that the pet food companies are off the mark. Think about their natural diet. They eat a mouse (herbivore) part of what they eat is protein, but they get calcium from the bones, vegetable matter from the intestines, fur, skin (fibre, fat, trace minerals) etc... It's not all protein even if all they eat all day and everyday. As a carnivore, they might be eating 50%-80% of their diet is protein. The rest is essential nutrients and water their body requires to stay alive.

To suggest that 50% of your diet is from protein (and should be) without a doubt is damaging your body in both the long term and short term. You would have to be missing a lot of the other nutrients we all need to stay alive. Since carnivores don't eat that much protein, then logic dictates that our bodies (as omnivores) are not designed to deal with that much protein.

So let's agree that 50% is an exaggeration or a miscalculation for a moment. Perhaps your diet is really 25%-30%, when the recommended protein amount is 10%-12% (and many are healthy eating less). Lets assume you're trying to build lots of muscle, so you doubled or tripled the recommended protein intake.

If we were still hunter/ gatherers we would be eating less protein than we do today and our bodies are made that way. Nature is nature. By nature, we eat mostly fruits and vegetables and protein when we can get it. Evolution changes things but not everything. We still have basically the same digestive system we've always had.

In the short term, studies have shown this poses no harm to the body. I think we are in agreement here. In the long term many reputable studies show that high protein diets have serious long-term consequences. So here you may be wrong or I may be wrong.

Is it worth the risk? You seem you seem to think so for the short term gain (muscles, weight loss... whatever). I've seen too many people over the years suffer permanent damage to their bodies from making those kind of decisions, so I have a different perspective.

Like I said... you're unlikely to take my advice, or anyone else who contradicts you because you are getting positive reinforcement from your actions. I just think it's worth hearing the other side.

I'm a weight lifter, not a kitty cat.

If we were hunter/gatherers, we wouldnt even be eating grains or tubers. It would most likely be leaves, berries and dead animals.

For what its worth, its good conversation.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

I'm a weight lifter, not a kitty cat.

My point exactly. Your diet should reflect it.

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

If we were hunter/gatherers, we wouldnt even be eating grains or tubers. It would most likely be leaves, berries and dead animals.

As hunter/ gatherers we ate seeds, nuts and grains to help sustain us over the winter not only because of the lack of fresh food, but because it makes us put on fat (therefore we are warmer).

There's no reason we would have not ate tubers... even our fellow omnivores (dogs) will dig-up and eat tubers. Carrots, potatoes, yams onions, garlic etc... all have nutrients in them our bodies need. Garlic is one of our oldest "medicines".

Meat was (and still should be) mostly smaller animals. Fish, birds, pigs rabbits (white meats)... larger animals/ red meat (deer, moose, bison etc...) were for feeding large groups of people or for drying/ preserving the meat for the winter.

Today, we (as a species) eat mostly red meat. Most domestic animals are raised to grow fast and to put on weight in a unnatural fashion. These animals have very little muscle. Muscle is not desired in animals raised for food fat is. I noticed a huge difference in my dogs when I fed them game meat vs store bought beef. After beef, they would want to sleep, after game meat they had energy. I could see huge advantages to having food animals passive. The trouble is that any additives that go into these animals go into us, as they are part of our food chain.

There is also a lot of processing that happens with food. Each "process" (cooking, freezing, husking, peeling, canning) strips away nutrients. Many foods have nutrients added for this reason. Grains are some of the most heavily processed. Think about all the steps it takes to change a piece of wheat to white bread....

Often, this stripped down grain is then used as "filler" in foods because it's cheap. Sugar, corn, oils and other nutrient deficient items are also added for taste and texture and as more filler.

So what I'm saying is we are designed by nature to eat a lot of unprocessed, fruits and vegetables. Our bodies need those nutrients. Even weight lifters... you would not believe how much quicker your body can recover when it has what it needs. Salads, smoothies, whatever... they're low in fat, high in nutrients... just the kind of thing our species needs.

I'm not saying to not eat meat. You're right to get a good variety of sources. What I'm saying is if most or half of your diet is for protein you are not getting the balance you need. Most protein sources are not rich in other nutrients, plus they will deplete some minerals such as calcium

Calcium is really important for muscle recovery and bone density. As a young adult, you are developing the bone density that you will have your whole life. Yes, weight bearing exercises improve bone density, but excess protein reduces it.

Again natural sources are best, and many of the trace nutrients found in fruits & veggies help your intake and absorption of not only calcium, but other minerals.

If you're going to watch what goes into your body, then you should ensure that it is in a balance and format that our bodies naturally need. Just think about the animal we are when you make your food choices. Don't forget that by nature our body drinks water to hydrate ourselves. We're the only species (I can think of) on this planet that doesn't naturally reach for water when we're thirsty anymore. The water will also help your body deal with the higher amount of protein you are eating.

[rory]

I know a lot of people who're getting good results from either the Zone diet or Paleo diet with Zone proportions i.e. eat what your ancestors ate at 40% carb, 30% fat, 30% protein.

Athletic and losing weight? You up the fat while keeping the rest constant.
Need to put on weight? Increase total calories while keeping the 40-30-30 proportions.

Quite simple.

[Cookeit]

You guys were earlier talking about taking fish oil...

How are you supposed to eat/drink it?
I can't imagine you just chug it down.

Also.. is 'Muscle Milk' a good choice?
My friend gave me some and it tasted pretty dang good.

[Coldfire]

Fish oil supplements can be taken as pills.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Cookeit

You guys were earlier talking about taking fish oil...

How are you supposed to eat/drink it?
I can't imagine you just chug it down.

Also.. is 'Muscle Milk' a good choice?
My friend gave me some and it tasted pretty dang good.

I get my fish oil as a pill.

Muscle milk DOES taste good, but its freaking expensive.

I just use whatever brand of whey protein I can find at a good price. Sometimes its at GNC, but most of the time I get it at Wal Mart or Sams Club.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by Cookeit

You guys were earlier talking about taking fish oil...

Fish oil supplements are more expensive than buying oil. You need to take 3 per day to get your daily amount. As for fish oil....

Growing up with an older sister as a health nut, I have painful memories of being given cod-liver oil... all the flavourings in the world couldn't mask it's nasty flavour. No child should have to eat mint or cherry flavoured cod liver oil!!!<fencergrl shivers at the nasty memories of the taste and of fending off stray cats from following her>

Now that I'm older a wiser (no doubt from all that nasty fish oil). I realize that it is/was really good for me. Doesn't mean I'm willing to take spoonfuls of it ever again!

Flax (or Hemp) oil is not nearly as fishy tasting. I put flax seed oil in salad dressings, smoothies, even stirred into yogurt and fruit. Check best before dates... like all nuts and seeds, it goes rancid.

[pragmatist]

Originally Posted by journalmom

I see some of his peers who are really muscular and I can't help it but to think that these kids (who aren't telling) are paying attention to their muscular development,

If you look at international top fencers, their upper body is not as muscular as boxers, other martial artists, tennis players, sprinters, gymnasts to name a few. This means fencers don't need upper body strength as much as some other athletes. Fencers need stronger legs (both red and white muscles.) You have to be patient, some kids, especially Asians have their pubertal growth spurt later. Unfortunately, height is a significant plus in all 3 fencing disciplines, like in many other sports. Unless you know how to change the genetic make up of your son, the only way you can do is to maximize the absorption of nutrients that he consumes, which means that every meal/snack should include the proper amount of protein, vitamins and minerals. Excess of protein in one meal without the other nutrients will result in less efficient uptake.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by pragmatist

If you look at international top fencers, their upper body is not as muscular as boxers, other martial artists, tennis players, sprinters, gymnasts to name a few. This means fencers don't need upper body strength as much as some other athletes. Fencers need stronger legs (both red and white muscles.)

Very good post. In fact, one could even argue that too much upper body strength could be detrimental to fencing. Muscle weighs more than fat, and all that upper body muscle has to move fast, which means that the more important muscle to develop is the legs.

To give you an example, Dimitri Kirk-Gordon, who was a very successful junior foil fencer in the early 2000s had an incredibly weak upper body. That man had no shoulders at all.