Referee exam questions 433, 434 & 435

[lindajdunn]

Background: It's been 1.5 years since I passed my last exam and thus I'll be attending a clinic later and taking the exam. In going through the exam and the manual and marking up index cards for each question as a memory aid, I've found three questions that brought me to a halt.

On 433, 434, and 435, I'm having some difficulty finding the reference in the September 2007 manual. [This is the most recent version, is it not?]


433. Fencer X makes an attack which clearly registers a valid touch as X's cut arrives on the guard of Fencer Y. Upon examination it is found that Y has a non-insulated pommel nut.
a. Award a touch for X.
b. Confiscate the illegal weapon; Y receives a YELLOW CARD; require Y to get a legal weapon.
c. Annul the touch.

For this one, I think the answer is b AND c. Shouldn't the touch be annulled? The touch was on the guard, not fencer Y. If it's in the manual, I missed it.

434. During the preliminary check-in of fencers prior to a pool it is discovered that Fencer X is wearing a waist-length jacket (without croissard)
a. No penalty; but require X to get a legal jacket prior to fencing the first bout.
b. Require X to get a legal jacket prior to fencing. X receives a yellow card in the first bout.
c. Allow X to fence in the jacket as long as there is at least a 10 centimeter overlap with the breeches when in the on guard position.

I looked through the material section and page 55 has details about the jacket but says nothing about requiring anything on the jacket beyond the length, material type, etc. Am I missing something? I thought the crossaird was required but I'm not finding anything in the manual saying this is so.

435. May an orthopaedic grip be used in sabre?
a. Yes, provided that the hand may be fixed in only one position, with the thumb 2 centimeters or less from the guard, and the upper surface of the thumb is perpendicular to the plane of flexibility of the blade.
b. No.
c. Yes, provided documented medical necessity for such a handle.

My first reaction upon reading this question was Are they nuts? And then I thought, Okay. This must be a trick question. I read through the technical description and I can't find any way that anyone could design an orthopaedic grip for sabre but I also couldn't find anything that said it was disallowed.

Has anyone actually ever tried to fence with an orthopaedic grip in sabre? And how in the heck did they manage to design one for sabre? Pictures, anyone?

Thank you in advance for any insight and guidance you can offer. I've found this area to be a great resource for helping me understand not only the question and answer for some of the exam items, but also the reasoning behind the questions.

[Philistine]

WRT to 433--I believe the correct answer is "a"--award the touch to X.

Rule t.73 generally calls for touches which are on the weapon to be anulled, but:

If the saber of the fencer judged to have been touched does not conform with Article m.24/4 and 24/6 (insulation of the interior and exterior of the guard, of the handle and of the pommel), there will be no annulment, even if a touch on the weapon causes a signal to register.

WRT to 435--I believe the correct answer is "a." (See rule m.4).

Someone I fenced with in college had an orthopedic sabre grip (left-handed, no less). He found it in a box of assorted grips in Santelli's store (this was about 20 years ago). It wasn't like a pistol grip. It's somewhat difficult to describe but it was sort of like someone had taken a wax rectangular box, squeezed it and cast it in metal. (It felt a bit odd, and I don't think I would have used it even if I'd found a right-handed one--but my friend liked it well enough--of course he shortly thereafter switched to epee....)

--Philistine

[KD5MDK]

I looked through the material section and page 55 has details about the jacket but says nothing about requiring anything on the jacket beyond the length, material type, etc. Am I missing something? I thought the crossaird was required but I'm not finding anything in the manual saying this is so.

If there's no rule against it, why wouldn't you allow it?

[lindajdunn]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

If there's no rule against it, why wouldn't you allow it?

I was concerned that there WAS a rule against it and I'd simply not found it.

[Philistine]

Is this just for saber?

My understanding was that in saber, waist-lenght jackets are still legal (assuming they meet the 10cm rule).

Even when waist-jackets were common, I don't think I ever saw someone fencing epee in one and assumed it would be illegal from a safety standpoint. Rule m.25(4) requires the jacket to cover the "whole of the surface of the trunk" in epee--presumably "trunk" is coextensive with the definition of trunk in rule t.47 (foil target area), so a jacket in epee would have to go below the waist.

Given that--unless the question is weapon-specific, is there a correct answer?

--Philistine

[flyingfencer]

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

Background: It's been 1.5 years since I passed my last exam and thus I'll be attending a clinic later and taking the exam. In going through the exam and the manual and marking up index cards for each question as a memory aid, I've found three questions that brought me to a halt.

On 433, 434, and 435, I'm having some difficulty finding the reference in the September 2007 manual. [This is the most recent version, is it not?]


433. Fencer X makes an attack which clearly registers a valid touch as X's cut arrives on the guard of Fencer Y. Upon examination it is found that Y has a non-insulated pommel nut.
a. Award a touch for X.
b. Confiscate the illegal weapon; Y receives a YELLOW CARD; require Y to get a legal weapon.
c. Annul the touch.

For this one, I think the answer is b AND c. Shouldn't the touch be annulled? The touch was on the guard, not fencer Y. If it's in the manual, I missed it.

434. During the preliminary check-in of fencers prior to a pool it is discovered that Fencer X is wearing a waist-length jacket (without croissard)
a. No penalty; but require X to get a legal jacket prior to fencing the first bout.
b. Require X to get a legal jacket prior to fencing. X receives a yellow card in the first bout.
c. Allow X to fence in the jacket as long as there is at least a 10 centimeter overlap with the breeches when in the on guard position.

I looked through the material section and page 55 has details about the jacket but says nothing about requiring anything on the jacket beyond the length, material type, etc. Am I missing something? I thought the crossaird was required but I'm not finding anything in the manual saying this is so.

435. May an orthopaedic grip be used in sabre?
a. Yes, provided that the hand may be fixed in only one position, with the thumb 2 centimeters or less from the guard, and the upper surface of the thumb is perpendicular to the plane of flexibility of the blade.
b. No.
c. Yes, provided documented medical necessity for such a handle.

My first reaction upon reading this question was Are they nuts? And then I thought, Okay. This must be a trick question. I read through the technical description and I can't find any way that anyone could design an orthopaedic grip for sabre but I also couldn't find anything that said it was disallowed.

Has anyone actually ever tried to fence with an orthopaedic grip in sabre? And how in the heck did they manage to design one for sabre? Pictures, anyone?

Thank you in advance for any insight and guidance you can offer. I've found this area to be a great resource for helping me understand not only the question and answer for some of the exam items, but also the reasoning behind the questions.

I'm not a referee rules expert, but I took and passed the test last year.

433. I really don't know the answer to this one.

434. c. there is no reference to the requirement of a croissard in the rules, but b. if no 10 cm overlap. M 25. 4. Jacket. At all weapons, for men and women, the lower edge of the jacket must overlap the knickers by at least 10 cm when the
fencer is in the on-guard position (cf. m.28, m.34).
The jacket must include a lining making a double thickness of
material for the sleeve down to the elbow of the sword arm and
covering the flank up to the region of the armpit. At épée the
fencer is required to wear a regulation jacket, which must cover
the whole of the surface of the trunk.
The use of breast/chest protectors (made of metal or some rigid
material) is compulsory for women and optional for men. In foil,
this breast/chest protector must be worn inside the jacket.
It would be a yellow card based on t 45. 3b

435. a. There is a reference in t 16. to orthopedic requirements for a grip and sabre is mentioned.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Philistine

Is this just for saber?

The 400-section is the sabre-specific portion of the study guide. So, yes, this question only looks at the rules in sabre.

-B

[lindajdunn]

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

435. a. There is a reference in t 16. to orthopedic requirements for a grip and sabre is mentioned.

Thanks. I found it and I'm making a note of that.

I've never, ever seen an orthopaedic grip in sabre. I've learned something new. Thanks.

[noodle]

A. just like you can use an insulated pistol grip in epee and have a touch register on it.
C. like you said, iirc, its not there.
A. like philistine said, they exist, and they're legal, iirc the definition is the same as orthopedic grips in foil/epee.

[dekko]

Interesting note to the 3rd question here. Kashi Way 'fashioned' a pistol grip into a sabre a couple of years ago. He is a lefty foil fencer out of Virginia. Nothing in the rules preventing a sabre from having a pistol grip as long as the grip is otherwise legal.

Keep in mind on the first question, don't confuse a couple of different rules here, there is the sabre specific rule mentioned earlier then the 'validity of touch' section. Take the question at face value and you will get the right answer.

Good luck with the rest of the test.

[Guymelef]

The basic idea behind the rules is to maintain fairness between the two fencers and maintain that winning and losing is based on fencing alone and not some crafty manipulation. Most of the rules in the book right now are based directly on some instance of cheating.

433. A, X's touch. Y's weapon is not conforming to the rules and it's his own fault. This is the same idea as in the epee section when there's no retaining clip around the weapon socket and the body cord falls out. In other words, tough.

434. B, Yellow card, confiscate, get new equipment. Every jacket needs to be secured by the croissard (wedgie strap). There are no exceptions. That one is in there as a throw-back to the old days.

435. A, yes it can provided that it meets all the standard requirments of an ortho-grip. A saberist friend has actually seen one of these in the aluminum. She said it was very uncomfortable.

Final thought: the rules book is written by fencers for fencers. This is a point that George K likes to make at all his seminars. He begins with the first rule, about the arm extending preceding a lunge or fleche. He demonstrates by extending his off arm and then lunging. A lawyer would have a field day with this, but every fencer who reads the rule knows its intent.
Conversely, the exam is written by referees for referees. There is no extraneous information, everything you need to know is right there in the question and in the order it happened. DO NOT try to second-guess the question and choose the BEST ANSWER.

Hope to see you in a NAC or SN bull-pen soon!

[KD5MDK]

434. B, Yellow card, confiscate, get new equipment. Every jacket needs to be secured by the croissard (wedgie strap). There are no exceptions. That one is in there as a throw-back to the old days.

Show me a rule that requires this.

[Guymelef]

Look at rule m.34 in the rules book.

In addition think about these conditions:
1. All the questions refer to an electronically scored USFA tournament. So you are checking electronic equipment.
2. The conductive garment is referred to as a jacket in both the rules and on previous test question.
3. Trust me, I got a perfect score on the saber test

[bigdawg2121]

WTF mate? What does m.34, which has to do with the metallic jacket have to do with this? I suppose it's possible that you got a perfect score on the saber test; it's also possible that whoever administered the test understood what you were thinking or talked to you about the questions at some point. That being said I cannot think of any reason that one would disallow the "saber jacket" with no croissard in electric saber competition assuming that all other criteria are met as far as overlapping when en guarde etc. Heck, I think they still make FIE saber jackets (not that they're really the easiest garments to get your hands on. It would actually seem that it's technically permissable in foil as well. To use your reasoning, since the electric jacket (which is referenced separately in the rulebook and is a really distinct, separate entity whether explicity termed electric jacket or jacket) is a jacket and has a croissard the requirement for having one has been met at least once. Hence it's only explicity required to be part of the jacket in electric epee where there is no such second layer to rely upon.

[Greg_D]

Originally Posted by lindajdunn

434. During the preliminary check-in of fencers prior to a pool it is discovered that Fencer X is wearing a waist-length jacket (without croissard)
a. No penalty; but require X to get a legal jacket prior to fencing the first bout.
b. Require X to get a legal jacket prior to fencing. X receives a yellow card in the first bout.
c. Allow X to fence in the jacket as long as there is at least a 10 centimeter overlap with the breeches when in the on guard position.

In order to eliminate confusion... the answer is c. (Since I am the keeper of the study guide, please trust me on this one...)

GD

[Guymelef]

Originally Posted by Greg_D

In order to eliminate confusion... the answer is c. (Since I am the keeper of the study guide, please trust me on this one...)

GD

I stand corrected and embarrassed. Sorry everyone and thanks GD.

[oiuyt]

Boo! You're just trying to be "Thread-Ender" again.... :)

-B

[Guymelef]

Nonsense, I'm the very source of a thread. Or, did you mean Greg?

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Boo! You're just trying to be "Thread-Ender" again....

-B

It's not nice to be jealous of more powerful FOCs.