age discrimination

[Nail Biter]

I was watching a Jr. WF bout in Dallas and the referee consistently gave the touch to the older fencer, a college student, over the other fencer who looked to be about 13 or 14 years old. It was to make 32. Do you thinks there's an age discrimination when it comes to giving the touch to the appropriate age fencer? That wasn't the first time I saw that phenomenon by a referee at a national tournament.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Nail Biter

I was watching a Jr. WF bout in Dallas and the referee consistently gave the touch to the older fencer, a college student, over the other fencer who looked to be about 13 or 14 years old. It was to make 32. Do you thinks there's an age discrimination when it comes to giving the touch to the appropriate age fencer? That wasn't the first time I saw that phenomenon by a referee at a national tournament.

Could it be because the older fencer was better?

I know that's a crazy idea but.. you never know.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Usually older fencers are more familiar with their bodies (especially compared to boys during or just before puberty). This allows older fencers to give cues that are more clear. In ROW weapons, making the action is important, but for a weaker ref, or a ref who's been reffing for days, or, really, any ref, having clear body language is key.

This is why two 13 year olds fencing is so painful to direct, because often, even when they're both making an appropriate action, they can't annunciate it with their bodies yet.

This is also part of the reason why people watching better youth fencing think that the good kids are older than they are, and the bad kids are younger than they are......

[Nail Biter]

Originally Posted by Gav

Could it be because the older fencer was better?

I know that's a crazy idea but.. you never know.

Would I post this question if it was that obvious? You totally missed the point and you don't have to be sarcastic.

[Nail Biter]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

Usually older fencers are more familiar with their bodies (especially compared to boys during or just before puberty). This allows older fencers to give cues that are more clear. In ROW weapons, making the action is important, but for a weaker ref, or a ref who's been reffing for days, or, really, any ref, having clear body language is key.

This is why two 13 year olds fencing is so painful to direct, because often, even when they're both making an appropriate action, they can't annunciate it with their bodies yet.

This is also part of the reason why people watching better youth fencing think that the good kids are older than they are, and the bad kids are younger than they are......

Thank you. Your explanation makes more sense. I thought the ref didn't see the action as clearly as some of us in the audience, and there were many spectators, but didn't know why. We thought it was because of their age difference but now that you put it in the perspective of their body difference, it makes sense.

[annacattiva]

Originally Posted by Nail Biter

Would I post this question if it was that obvious? You totally missed the point and you don't have to be sarcastic.

Well, it certainly seemed like you were asking a question that was this obvious. That was my first reaction too. And don't get snippy with the moderators.

I would also suggest that it's possible that the referee was better at seeing what was happening that those in the audience and was calling things much more tightly than the audience was perceiving. That is pure speculation, without knowing who the referee was (I don't want to know, actually; I'm just offering another theory).

Anna

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Nail Biter

Would I post this question if it was that obvious? You totally missed the point and you don't have to be sarcastic.

I'm sorry but you didn't illustrate why you thought there was some sort of discrimination going on. I felt the only answer to the question you were asking was in the order of what I typed. I don't respond to many questions on this board at present - unless I think a point has to be made.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by Nail Biter

...snip...Do you thinks there's an age discrimination when it comes to giving the touch to the appropriate age fencer? That wasn't the first time I saw that phenomenon by a referee at a national tournament.

Why was this your explanation for the victory, rather than Gav's?

Originally Posted by Nail Biter

Would I post this question if it was that obvious? You totally missed the point and you don't have to be sarcastic.

And you totally missed Gav's point (though it was a more subtle).

Gav -- like a lot of us on F.net -- gets frustrated at the lack of critical thinking we see in a lot of posts. You actually had part of a good answer in your original post, but didn't take the time or thought to use it.

If you had posted: what influence does age difference have on fencing skill? you could have started the thread out on something other than (indirectly) accusing referees of bias.

AE

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by Nail Biter

Thank you. Your explanation makes more sense. I thought the ref didn't see the action as clearly as some of us in the audience, and there were many spectators, but didn't know why. We thought it was because of their age difference but now that you put it in the perspective of their body difference, it makes sense.

There may be other factors at play as well. I assume that this is foil, and I also assume that we are talking about calls made by the ref when both fencers' lights went on. What were you and others seeing the younger fencer doing that you felt should have given right of way to that fencer? If you could describe the sequence of actions, it would help to determine if the calls were going to the older fencer because of body language or an interpretation of ROW that was different than expected.

[Nail Biter]

Originally Posted by annacattiva

Well, it certainly seemed like you were asking a question that was this obvious. That was my first reaction too. And don't get snippy with the moderators.

I'm sorry. I got defensive when I read Gav's remark. If I thought that the older might be better than the younger one, there wouldn't be this post. That would be obvious even in my young mind.

I would also suggest that it's possible that the referee was better at seeing what was happening that those in the audience and was calling things much more tightly than the audience was perceiving.

There were many spectators including many coaches on both sides and there were a lot of disagreements with the calls. The ref didn't care. There were different incidences when the calls went to the older fencer. Can't remember the specific actions now but the general consensus was that he was not recognizing the many ROW's (both lights) and parries as parries. So I thought may be, just may be, he was giving the older one the benefit of the doubt since she is older, not necessarily better. But I can see how the action of an older person can be more obvious than a smaller framed body of a younger fencer.

[Nail Biter]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Gav -- like a lot of us on F.net -- gets frustrated at the lack of critical thinking we see in a lot of posts. You actually had part of a good answer in your original post, but didn't take the time or thought to use it.

If you had posted: what influence does age difference have on fencing skill? you could have started the thread out on something other than (indirectly) accusing referees of bias.

AE

I'm sorry if I offended you or other referees. I didn't mean to accuse you or anyone, directly or indirectly. Gosh, the way my fencing has been, the last thing I want to do is to piss off any referees. But frustrated or not, I was startled when I read Gav's post that sounded, to me, like I was being an idiot asking such a stupid question. I did have a genuine question about why some referees seemed to give points to older fencers when things are murky, totally not in any accusatory way.

Maybe I am not using my critical thinking as you say but I really wondered if age plays a role in referee's calls - not what influence does age difference have on fencing skill?

[Cry_Me_A_River]

Originally Posted by Nail Biter

Do you thinks there's an age discrimination when it comes to giving the touch to the appropriate age fencer?

It was more than likely b/c the fencing had ROW!

[oiuyt]

I would HARDLY characterize what Nail Biter has been saying as an indirect accusation. The OP basically puts forth the question of whether referees systematically favor older fencers or whether it was merely this one individual.

Refereeing is a difficult and often nearly thankless job. That said, most national-level referees are better at it than most other people. A crowd of spectators, comprised mainly of parents and clubmates, is hardly an unbiased (or necessarily qualified) source of assessment.

Some coaches are extremely good at seeing actions -- after all, they have a huge amount of experience doing so. They aren't, generally speaking, unbiased observers, however.

Do referees make mistakes? Of course. Do they favor people (or classes of people)? Not that I've seen. And those extraordinarily rare individuals who do quickly find themselves no longer employed as referees.

-B

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by Nail Biter

Maybe I am not using my critical thinking as you say but I really wondered if age plays a role in referee's calls - not what influence does age difference have on fencing skill?

Okay...a little less subtle...do you think that a National referee would be allowed to work at the level of a 32 if it was thought that he/she gave points simple based on who looks older/more experienced?

If that's your perception of the sport, you need to have a long talk with an experienced national referee before you get yourself into more trouble than a sarcastic comment from a F.net moderator.

Just some friendly advice

AE

[Allen Evans]

Ah, I see Oiuyt beat me to it. Good play.

AE

[edew]

If there were bad calls, I'd blame incompetence first rather than pull out the conspiracy (towards older fencers) card.

[KD5MDK]

There were many spectators including many coaches on both sides and there were a lot of disagreements with the calls. The ref didn't care.

The referee can't care. If they care what the coaches say, they're not a referee, they're a marionette.

[Nail Biter]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Okay...a little less subtle...do you think that a National referee would be allowed to work at the level of a 32 if it was thought that he/she gave points simple based on who looks older/more experienced?

If that's your perception of the sport, you need to have a long talk with an experienced national referee before you get yourself into more trouble than a sarcastic comment from a F.net moderator.

Just some friendly advice

AE

I might be putting my foot in the mouth again when I say this but I've been fencing at the national tournaments for only 2 years and I might be naive in thinking that referees can be biased. So I'm glad all of you have cleared that up for me. I also learned from this question that referees can't care, couldn't have gone to ref 32's if they are not competent, they are the experts in seeing the actions, and they clearly are not biased against younger fencers. Got it. Thanks. Now, I'll go talk to that experienced national ref before I get in more trouble here. Oh, wait, I AM talking to them.

[Phaeton]

In the United States, at least, the problem with referees is clearly less bias and corruption than the existence of a clear-well qualified referee corps. That is not to say that the US doesn't have good directors; there are plenty of them, but rather to say that there aren't quite enough. One has to keep in mind that quite often "bias" is just "ignorance" and is more than well intentioned. Being a director is tough.

Last time I checked directors don't get a personal "bias" fact list before they judge a pool. I can't a remember a single instance where the director received a piece of paper listing my age, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, mother's maiden name, social security number, or favorite flavor ice cream.

[keith]

Originally Posted by Phaeton

I can't a remember a single instance where the director received a piece of paper listing my age, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, mother's maiden name, social security number, or favorite flavor ice cream.

Of course they don't get a piece of paper.

The information is directly transmitted to their neural implants from the computers at the USFA.

sheesh