Epee 2.0 by Johan Harmenberg

[JEC]

Johan,
Thanks for sharing your experiences. My only complaint is that the book was too short. Paul Pesthy told me two things about your book: a) You were physically in much better shape that you gave credit to yourself, and b) You still began an attack with an arm extension when advancing but with few rare exceptions as a deceiving motion. Would you care to elaborate on the latter?
In regards to your question in the last post, I know that elite epee coaches do limit the usual game of their students to a limited number of "excellent" moves, and worked hard to perfect them. Paul was doing that.
Thanks,
JEC

[jojo]

JEC,

I had several discussions with Paul and I think that I fenced him once in Texas (could have been 1981 or so).

Just a quick response to your question. My attack was simply not good enough against good fencers. So I did not use it at all. My counter attack with a binding was however excellent so I basically needed the opponent to attack (or at least extend the arm). The opponent would therefore be hesitant to attack me at all (quite understandably). The bout could therefore easily be turned into a waiting game which I always won due to a number of factors that I have described in the book.

Then again there were fencers that were not world class. (And I may insult a number of readers, this included all Americans of my generation.) These fencers were afraid of me (winning gold medals) and they would not happily attack more than once. Against fencers that were not world class I had no intention of turning the fencing into a waiting game so I would happily attack in the classical way (and I might start even with an arm extension). If I was losing the bout, I could always turn it into a waiting game that I mostly would win anyway through maneuvering into counter attacks, as back-up tactics. Also remember that most competitions were not DE, and I did not mind losing a bout here and there as long as I won the whole competition.

Against world class opponents (or in Olympic touch situations), I would not dream of starting an attack myself and certainly not with an arm extension.

Finally, I figured out these things clearly by 1977, I fenced in US from 1973 so if Paul saw me pre-1977, it is a completely other story.

Johan

[ivlobane]

An honor to have you here, I read the book and had to make the above conclusion: there is no way that all you fencing was based the "Olympic" actions you focus on.

Two questions: did you ever run into Robert Marx at any of these events?

And have you had any interactions with Vladimir Nikolajchuk? He is Kolobkov's initial coach and he was shunned in the USSR like you say you were in Sweden. Heh, "you must learn to fence without bouncing", that seems rather silly now. Nikolajchuk's methods were also quite new and unorthodox for the time, but with obvious results.

Thanks, IVL

[jojo]

JVL,

Your are right, I played around quite a lot but I always returned to the Olympic actions when I needed. And when I needed I could be brutally stringent by staying with my Olympic actions.

I definitely have a memory of Michael Marx but I might have mixed the brothers together.

Kolobkov is interesting, he waits very, very late to extent his arm but when he does, his arm extension is lightening. I have not talked to his coach.

Best Regards

Johan

[badpenny]

Johan:

Thank you very much for writing the book, it was a very entertaining story as well as a great instructional text. The idea of what is orthodox/unorthodox was very insightful.

Did you ever have trouble with opps that were proficient with flicks? I've seen some very good fencers that can press the wrist and yet expose themselves very little to giving away their blade? How does an attack like this play out in the new paradigm?

[JEC]

Originally Posted by jojo

JEC,

I had several discussions with Paul and I think that I fenced him once in Texas (could have been 1981 or so).
...

Against world class opponents (or in Olympic touch situations), I would not dream of starting an attack myself and certainly not with an arm extension.

Finally, I figured out these things clearly by 1977, I fenced in US from 1973 so if Paul saw me pre-1977, it is a completely other story.

Johan

Paul still remberered you from the '80s. He told me that he had fenced you in the early '80s here in San Antonio. He read your book at least three or four times, and we discussed it often last summer. He was my son's coach. He had so many anecdotes. We are missing him a lot! I guess you were fencing non-world class epeeists when he saw you because you had "great classical form" most of the time, and then, you had a touch or two that were "un-orthodox" like those described in your book closing in the distance and extending last. Thanks again.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by JEC

Paul still remberered you from the '80s. He told me that he had fenced you in the early '80s here in San Antonio. He read your book at least three or four times, and we discussed it often last summer. He was my son's coach. He had so many anecdotes. We are missing him a lot! I guess you were fencing non-world class epeeists when he saw you because you had "great classical form" most of the time, and then, you had a touch or two that were "un-orthodox" like those described in your book closing in the distance and extending last. Thanks again.

JEC,

I was in San Antonio both 1980 and 1981. I was fencing half-speed partly because I did not have to fence harder and partly due to the massive amounts of frozen margarita that were served before the competition. I still have a t-skirt that says Ralph Bender from the time in San Antonio and is still too tight.

Regards

Johan

[jojo]

Originally Posted by badpenny

Johan:

Thank you very much for writing the book, it was a very entertaining story as well as a great instructional text. The idea of what is orthodox/unorthodox was very insightful.

Did you ever have trouble with opps that were proficient with flicks? I've seen some very good fencers that can press the wrist and yet expose themselves very little to giving away their blade? How does an attack like this play out in the new paradigm?

Minor problem because people tend to flick towards a target, mostly hand or arm (or maybe foot). No target=no flicks. If you stand close enough offering a tempting body target, they might attempt flicks anyway towards the body which would offer me a gigantic target for counter attacks.

JH

[RkfdFencer]

Originally Posted by jojo

I always start with the same simple 3 questions: What is your best move? What is the best move of your opponent? And how do you plan to navigate around your own best move and that of your opponent? I rarely get good answers to any of these very simple questions. (There are exceptions though) I would be interested in knowing whether the readers of this discussion feel that they have good answers to my questions.

Not wanting this renewed thread to die off so quickly, I'll try to respond to the general questions you posted. I'm at work, so I won't have time for much technical detail, but I'm not sure that matters in this context.

1. I believe I have identified my best move, although I need to improve on the technique of it.

3. I have a response to that move when used against me, but really need to work on the technique of that response.

2. (yes, I am out of order) I have trouble scouting my opponents and identifying their favorite actions ahead of time. I do actively try to steer people into my own area of preference during bouts (not using the AoE term from the book because I'm not sure the word expertise should be applied to my fencing )

I did read your book and it has opened up some avenues of thought for me. Before reading it, I doubt I would have had any answers to your 3 questions.

Thanks for sharing your experiences through the book. It was definitely worth it for me.

[Epeedemic]

Johan:

I have read your book and it is incredible! It has given me a whole new perspective on epee fencing. I have one question though...
In your book you discuss briefly how fencers who use a French grip are trickier to fence because of absence of blade techniques. I have recently (about six months past) begun using the new style of French grip that is being sold by Leon Paul (among others). Are there any ways I can capitalize on my newfound reach? Should my stregnth be in counterattacks? Could I also engage the blade or would it be safer to fence absense of blade?

[DangerMouse]

Isn't that what you pay a coach to help with?

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by Epeedemic

In your book you discuss briefly how fencers who use a French grip are trickier to fence because of absence of blade techniques.... Are there any ways I can capitalize on my newfound reach? Should my stregnth be in counterattacks? Could I also engage the blade or would it be safer to fence absense of blade?

And didn't you answer part of your post...yourself?

AE

[piste off]

Originally Posted by Epeedemic

Johan:

I have read your book and it is incredible! It has given me a whole new perspective on epee fencing. I have one question though...
In your book you discuss briefly how fencers who use a French grip are trickier to fence because of absence of blade techniques. I have recently (about six months past) begun using the new style of French grip that is being sold by Leon Paul (among others). Are there any ways I can capitalize on my newfound reach? Should my stregnth be in counterattacks? Could I also engage the blade or would it be safer to fence absense of blade?

AOB took away one of his required conditions to exectute his Area Of Excellence, but that was not specific to french grip fencers.

Johan's stated difficulty with some french grip fencers had more to do with what he called the "who has the longest arm" game that some employed. This was primarily pommelers like Mazzoni and Riboud - who had a lot more going for them than just that.

R-

[Mr.MightyMouse]

Originally Posted by piste off

AOB took away one of his required conditions to exectute his Area Of Excellence, but that was not specific to french grip fencers.

Johan's stated difficulty with some french grip fencers had more to do with what he called the "who has the longest arm" game that some employed. This was primarily pommelers like Mazzoni and Riboud - who had a lot more going for them than just that.

R-

i COULD'VE SWORE Riboud fenced with a pistol and Boisse Pere with french.

[piste off]

Originally Posted by Mr.MightyMouse

i COULD'VE SWORE Riboud fenced with a pistol and Boisse Pere with french.

Both french grippers. In fact, you can see Riboud on the front cover of the book (it shows it). Even later in his career, he used it (I've got a copy of the 1988 Olympic final with Arnd Schmitt and he was still using it).

R-

[Mr.MightyMouse]

Originally Posted by piste off

Both french grippers. In fact, you can see Riboud on the front cover of the book (it shows it). Even later in his career, he used it (I've got a copy of the 1988 Olympic final with Arnd Schmitt and he was still using it).

R-

My fault, I just remember seeing Boisse Sr. scoring on Riboud with second and 3rd intention fleches in videos - and just assumed that Riboud fenced with pistol grip.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Mr.MightyMouse

My fault, I just remember seeing Boisse Sr. scoring on Riboud with second and 3rd intention fleches in videos - and just assumed that Riboud fenced with pistol grip.

No, but your confusion is somewhat justified.

The man was a monster.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by piste off

AOB took away one of his required conditions to exectute his Area Of Excellence, but that was not specific to french grip fencers.

Johan's stated difficulty with some french grip fencers had more to do with what he called the "who has the longest arm" game that some employed. This was primarily pommelers like Mazzoni and Riboud - who had a lot more going for them than just that.

R-

Johann was very specific in his book that he developed a technique sepcifically aimed at defeating Riboud. And he still wasn't always sucessful!

One of the many things I liked about the book is Harmenberg's obvious respect for the greats of his day. In particular Riboud.

[jojo]

You are all right at the same time. Riboud mostly fenced with a French grip. He varied between using the French grip to extend his reach and to hold the grip directly behind the guard. He had very strong fingers so that I did not have strength advantage even if though I fenced with a pistol grip. When things got out of hand he could change to a pistol grip.

Regards

Johan

PS Epeedemic: Unfortunately impossible to give specific advice when I have not seen you fence.

[Mr.MightyMouse]

Thanks and my apologies.
Guess this should have tipped me of :
http://www.escrime-info.com/modules/.../riboudbis.jpg