11-13-2007, 09:47 PM
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#1 | | Member
Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 65
| Italian Grip
Why has the Italian grip been abandoned? it seems like it would work (and did for a long time) is it legal anymore? | 
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11-13-2007, 10:28 PM
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#2 | | gother than thou
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 852
| Quote:
Originally Posted by RenegadeStorm88  it seems like it would work | If it worked, we'd still be using it.
It doesn't, by the way. | 
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11-13-2007, 10:31 PM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Earth
Posts: 3,003
| Doesn't it have to do with how the french grip allows faster smaller movements with the fingers over big movements with the arm and italian grips?
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11-13-2007, 10:31 PM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,680
| This has been hashed over so many times in this forum that it has become the local in joke (not the grip, but the number of threads there has been on the subject). I'll bet a few minutes of searching will turn up way more than you ever wanted to read about it....
-p | |
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11-13-2007, 11:10 PM
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#5 | | Scrub
Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Miami
Posts: 2,553
| Yes, it is legal.
You will find few advocates here, but they do exist.
I find they look nice as wall decorations. | |
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11-13-2007, 11:18 PM
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#6 | | gother than thou
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 852
| Quote:
Originally Posted by peet This has been hashed over so many times in this forum that it has become the local in joke (not the grip, but the number of threads there has been on the subject). I'll bet a few minutes of searching will turn up way more than you ever wanted to read about it....
-p | NO LET'S FIGHT ABOUT IT AGAIN >.> | |
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11-13-2007, 11:21 PM
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#7 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: MA
Posts: 7,451
| Quote:
Originally Posted by RenegadeStorm88 Why has the Italian grip been abandoned? it seems like it would work (and did for a long time) is it legal anymore? | You'll find the occasional fencer who uses it at the local level, but by and large it is considered to be a disadvantage.
It is legal. | |
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11-14-2007, 04:12 AM
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#8 | | Épéeist Hive Queen
Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sweden
Posts: 12,754
| Hooray, another thread about the italian grip. What is it with you americans and your obsession for odd grips?!
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Fencing is my only PvP. | |
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11-14-2007, 04:41 AM
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#9 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: May 2000 Location: The valley of the -hot- sun, NorCal
Posts: 3,184
| Love of gadgetry and the impression that a single pill (or grip, in that case), can solve the world's problems in the blink of an eye? :-)
__________________ - Epee is the Louis Vuitton bag of fencing: only the best can get it, and the rest of the masses must content themselves with cheap knockoffs (sabre, foil)
- To not recognize the power of the French grip is to be in denial
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11-14-2007, 05:33 AM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Ask.
Posts: 499
| Like veeco implies, it's the constant American search for the "quick fix" to their problems.
Learn to use your fingers properly on an ortho, or develop good grip strength and even better fingerplay and use a french. The Italian is unnecessary.
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11-14-2007, 11:00 AM
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#11 | | Member
Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 65
| Not so much the search for a fix-all, at least not me, im just new and curious is all! ill use the search next time, thanks all | |
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11-14-2007, 04:30 PM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Northern California
Posts: 379
| Quote:
Originally Posted by rory Like veeco implies, it's the constant American search for the "quick fix" to their problems.
Learn to use your fingers properly on an ortho, or develop good grip strength and even better fingerplay and use a french. The Italian is unnecessary. | Personally, I use a russian grip. But if it's a choice between french or italian foil, I'd take italian. I don't see why the high respect for french grip foil, but such disdain for the italian. (French grip epee is a different story.)
I suspect it has less to do with the grip itself and more to do with the... let's say... personality conflicts that have come up over the years. 
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11-14-2007, 05:44 PM
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#13 | | Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,144
| I don't see any respect for French grip foil. | |
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11-14-2007, 05:46 PM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Earth
Posts: 3,003
| Why is everyone hating on the french grip foil? That's what I use. (of course I'm a total beginner)
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11-14-2007, 05:56 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,064
| I think Hauptmann's last part is right.
Some people use the grip because they're accustomed to it and like it - more power to them, Some people are curious and wonder why it's no longer used, as seems to be the reason for RS88. Others, well....
I disagree with veeco and rory that people are attracted to the Italian as the "quick fix", even though that's the stereotype for us Yanks. I think it's the other way around, and that some use the grip because it's harder and they can affect some form of snobbery "look, I use the real grip for real fencers, not that orthopedic grip to make things easy, and is really meant for people with hand injuries". I've seen and heard remarks along those lines from this camp.
As far as French goes, the emotions seem to be a lot calmer. I still see competent fencers using it, and it's really not that long ago (in the big scheme of things) that elite foilists used the grip in competition. It's also a natural grip to hold, unlike the specialized hand position you need to learn for Italian.
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Last edited by jeff; 11-14-2007 at 05:58 PM.
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11-15-2007, 12:40 AM
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#16 | | Member
Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 65
| I'd be interested in getting and learning to use an Italian simply for the novelty, i think it'd be pretty cool, lol that sounds so n00bish, but hey | |
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11-15-2007, 05:58 AM
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#17 | | Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Scotland
Posts: 4,621
| Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff I think Hauptmann's last part is right. | No he isn't. In the current environment the Italian is completely obsolete. Saying that it's lack of use is down to "personality conflicts" is either naive or stupid (as in denying reality stupid). I don't know Hauptman so ... Quote: |
Some people use the grip because they're accustomed to it and like it - more power to them, Some people are curious and wonder why it's no longer used, as seems to be the reason for RS88. Others, well....
| Indeed. And fair play to them. I read a lot of books on a lot of subjects. History is one of them. A lot of what I read is about concepts that are no longer relevant and yet I still find them interesting. It's good to know about these things; it's good to know how things come about. It's also good to accept that not every idea is always practicable or relevant. Quote: |
I disagree with veeco and rory that people are attracted to the Italian as the "quick fix", even though that's the stereotype for us Yanks. I think it's the other way around, and that some use the grip because it's harder and they can affect some form of snobbery "look, I use the real grip for real fencers, not that orthopedic grip to make things easy, and is really meant for people with hand injuries". I've seen and heard remarks along those lines from this camp.
| And in this we are going to have to agree to disagree. The orthopaedic was actually invented to help those with hand injuries to fence (and there are far more types then the main ones we see today). There did use to be a real snobbery aimed at those who used ortho's because of this.
Before I came to this board I had had a shot of an italian grip. Me and the guys were curious about it and it looked "swashbuckling". We quickly realised that this was a curio and moved on. A curio in much the same way that other old items are - bric-a-brac. When I came to this board I was amazed to find out that people were still... using them... "competitively". I had never come across that before. Never. Not once. Obsession with this grip is purely American. Quote: | As far as French goes, the emotions seem to be a lot calmer. I still see competent fencers using it, and it's really not that long ago (in the big scheme of things) that elite foilists used the grip in competition. It's also a natural grip to hold, unlike the specialized hand position you need to learn for Italian.
| My emphasis.
That is because there is still a place for French grip use - especially in Epee. If there wasn't you would see the same sorts of comments as you do for Italian grips.
Now; can we move on and talk about much more interesting things?
Last edited by Gav; 11-15-2007 at 08:23 AM.
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11-15-2007, 06:03 AM
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#18 | | Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Scotland
Posts: 4,621
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Why is everyone hating on the french grip foil? That's what I use. (of course I'm a total beginner) | You are learning it because learning to use a french grip foil will teach you to use your fingers correctly. At some point in the future you will [most likely] graduate to an orthopedic.
There is a little bit of controversy about whether to bother with learning french when you are learning foil. I am in the camp that says it will do you no harm at all; in fact it will [probably] help you in the long run.
Using it will give you some good foundations. If you move on to Epee then you may even want to keep using it.
Listen to your coach; don't listen to people wittering on about abstract concepts - you will just get confused.
Last edited by Gav; 11-15-2007 at 06:11 AM.
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11-15-2007, 07:20 AM
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#19 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,624
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Gav When I came to this board I was amazed to find out that people were still... using them... "competitively". I had never come across that before. Never. Not once. Obsession with this grip is purely American. | ...and reflects the fact that many American coaches and fencers are still stuck in the 1930's, fencing-wise.
AE | |
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11-15-2007, 10:24 AM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Somewhere between Pennsylvania and Connecticut
Posts: 129
| Quote:
Originally Posted by RenegadeStorm88 Why has the Italian grip been abandoned? it seems like it would work (and did for a long time) is it legal anymore? | Just for drill...
The Italian grip is illegal under the current rules. The rules state
(m.4)...
5. The grip must not include any device which can increase in any way the protection afforded to the hand or wrist of the fencer on guard: a cross bar or electric socket which extends beyond the edge of the guard is expressly forbidden.
6. If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has a special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position of the hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the following conditions.
(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip....
The Italian grip has a cross bar extending beyond the guard. It also has a special shape (i.e. the loops into which your fingers may go to increase control). However, you can hold an Italian grip by the pommel, violating the fixing of the position of the hand on the grip in the case of #6.
Greg | |
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