What to do?

[epeeslasher]

Has anyone here ever had a student who didn't want to fence but signed up because their parents made them? What can you do as a coach in these situations?

I'm lucky to run a laid-back club, fencers can hang out there even if they don't want to fence. I don't force anyone to fence if they don't want to. Still, it is frustrating to see someone there looking as if they would rather be five-thousand miles away. What about some of you other coaches, what do you do?

[noodle]

i'd be quite alright with someone who signs up to fence but doesn't show up to fence, or shows ups but doesn't fence because they don't want to, or something along those lines.

but if someone signs up to fence, comes to class, and ruins that class because they're being a jerk about being "forced" to fence, then i'd tell them to either sit out or get out.

but then again, i don't run a club and don't rely on the income.

[Fencergrl]

LOL... I get this a fair bit because of the type of coaching I do. I find the best way top deal with those that don't want to fence is to have structure. Drills and mini-tournaments. Minimize the amount of time they get to choose how they spend their time.

Two possible outcomes.... 1) They hate fencing even more because now they have to actually do it. This forces them to react by telling their parents. This is good. No point in wasting money. This frees up space in the class for someone who is interested.

2) They end up enjoying it after all. I've never really seen this happen, but it might.

What I have seen is kids who have hung around for years. The problem is they often get other kids talking instead of fencing, and soon you have most (if not all) the kids standing around chatting instead of fencing.

Personally, it makes me nuts.

Alternatively, speak to their parents. They're paying the bills. They should know how their money is being spent.

[Goldgar]

Has anyone here ever had a student who didn't want to fence but signed up because their parents made them? What can you do as a coach in these situations?

I'm lucky to run a laid-back club, fencers can hang out there even if they don't want to fence. I don't force anyone to fence if they don't want to. Still, it is frustrating to see someone there looking as if they would rather be five-thousand miles away. What about some of you other coaches, what do you do?

I've occasionally had kids who didn't seem like they wanted to be there. The odd thing is, their parents have told me, "Johnny just loves fencing! Coming to fencing is all he talks about!" So I don't trust the student's demeanor.

I do insist that students participate properly in class -- no one is allowed to ruin it for their drill partner. "Delay of class", "disobeying the instructor", and "wasting your partner's time" are all grounds for a yellow card. Yellow cards are followed by red cards that result in loss of a points in end-of-class bouting, so most kids respond to these penalties.

I've never had a student who out and out refused to participate in class. On the occasions when I've had a student who seemed not to be trying, I've tried working with them a bit to get their energy level up and get them excited about what they're doing. If that didn't work, I'd probably try talking it out with them, and try to find out what's behind their behavior. But it hasn't really happened yet.

With teenagers, I find the social aspects of the salle are very important, so I don't come down on them too hard for hanging out. However, I will come along after a while and gently remind them that this is not the mall, and prompt them to get out on the strips. If I saw someone who never actually fenced, I'd talk to them about why.

In general, my approach is to try to infect the students with enthusiasm about fencing. If I can do that, I don't have to push them.

[Durando]

I do insist that students participate properly in class -- no one is allowed to ruin it for their drill partner. "Delay of class", "disobeying the instructor", and "wasting your partner's time" are all grounds for a yellow card. Yellow cards are followed by red cards that result in loss of a points in end-of-class bouting, so most kids respond to these penalties.

That's a good idea, worth filing away. I like how it uses the current system to reinforce the sport's values. Now, given that you have penalties in your class, what sort of reward system do you use?

However, I will come along after a while and gently remind them that this is not the mall, and prompt them to get out on the strips.

Hysterical. I can already hear you saying this. (You are not at the mall. Do you want to end up living in a van down by THE RIVER?) Can you help me figure out something to say to keep my kids from nipping off for cigarettes?

In my regular courses and fencing I tend to put up no resistance to students who don't want to participate. I do insist that they be active, however. It's been a while since I taught high school, but often I found that students who didn't want to participate had other priorities.

I don't mean this to sound snotty: they were often stressed about other subjects and/or getting their homework done. "Fine, get out your math homework and start working," was my usual response. Usually, teenagers come around to participating in the group again; They're usually not strong enough to stick to their priorites once they are expressed and recognized by an authority figure. Maybe you could set up a study area, remote from but still in view of where you're working.

[Goldgar]

Now, given that you have penalties in your class, what sort of reward system do you use?

I don't really have one, aside from praise for good work and devoted effort. I'd love to hear any ideas. Oh, very occasionally (non-systematic) I'll have some reward for the best effort. Once, for the youth class, I had couple of cookies I handed out for "best-executed action of the day", and it really got a response from the class, but I wouldn't want to do that as a regular thing. It would be too much like buying performance, and I've been told that food rewards are bad in principle.

I don't mean this to sound snotty: they were often stressed about other subjects and/or getting their homework done. "Fine, get out your math homework and start working," was my usual response. Usually, teenagers come around to participating in the group again; They're usually not strong enough to stick to their priorites once they are expressed and recognized by an authority figure. Maybe you could set up a study area, remote from but still in view of where you're working.

Good point. I haven't heard that reason yet, but I expect I will. We do have a lounge area with tables where students can work, and they often do their homework while waiting for their parents to pick them up.

[Durando]

I don't really have one, aside from praise for good work and devoted effort. I'd love to hear any ideas.

I'm going to try mask stickers à la football helmet stickers.

[Goldgar]

I'm going to try mask stickers à la football helmet stickers.

I don't know what football helmet stickers are, or how a fencing analog would work. Could you explain, please?

[oiuyt]

I don't know what football helmet stickers are, or how a fencing analog would work. Could you explain, please?

This Saturday watch almost ANY of the collegiate football on TV. Notice all of the small logos towards the back of the players' helmets. Note that the better and older players tend to have more of them.

They're a reward system. Play well in a game and you add a decal to your helmet for the rest of your (collegiate) career.

Given that NCAA football maxes out at ~50 opportunities in a career (11-12 games/season, plus bowl games), and fencing practices could easily involve double that in a year (and less space for such stickers), I'm not sure how well it translates. I don't think they give them out for practice performance in football, but rather reserve them for performance in competition.

Not having ever been involved in football as other than a spectator I don't know what typical criteria for earning a sticker tends to be. Anyone have more direct information?

-B

[Durando]

Not having ever been involved in football as other than a spectator I don't know what typical criteria for earning a sticker tends to be. Anyone have more direct information?

Every team has different criteria. I think I'm going to give them out only when I feel motivated to do so. Unofficially, it will be one for ever competition (for those who need to be getting to competition); one for ever podium (for those who should be coming up with results.

[Hauptman]

From a strictly psychological perspective, random rewards are the way to go for optimal conditioning. If you reward everytime they will only perform if the reward is available, but if you reward only some of the time they don't know when it's coming and will make the effort more often. Ideally, you reward consistantly at first and then taper off to a random level. Trial and error will tell you how often is necessary..... I knew that Behavioral Psychology class would come in handy!!

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Has anyone here ever had a student who didn't want to fence but signed up because their parents made them? What can you do as a coach in these situations?

I'm lucky to run a laid-back club, fencers can hang out there even if they don't want to fence. I don't force anyone to fence if they don't want to. Still, it is frustrating to see someone there looking as if they would rather be five-thousand miles away. What about some of you other coaches, what do you do?

Talk to the parents. Don't let them sign the kid up again.

Unhappy people make for an unhappy atmosphere.

[oiuyt]

From a strictly psychological perspective, random rewards are the way to go for optimal conditioning.

Go truly random, don't even look at the quality of the performance.... :)

For those looking for more information about reward systems I'd recommend Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn. An interesting read.

-B

[Hauptman]

Go truly random, don't even look at the quality of the performance....

For those looking for more information about reward systems I'd recommend Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn. An interesting read.

-B

lol... ok... maybe I should be more specific. The behavior that gets a reward should be specific, and the type of reward should be specific, but you shouldn't reward them every time they perform the behavior. They should only know that they might be rewarded for the behavior. This gets longer lasting results than rewarding everytime.

I hope that is a bit more clear.

[oiuyt]

I hope that is a bit more clear. :)

Oh, you were perfectly clear the first time. It's just funnier my way.... :)

-B

[Mo]

Go truly random, don't even look at the quality of the performance....

For those looking for more information about reward systems I'd recommend Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn. An interesting read.

-B

B,
Should, I mean WHEN you have kids PBR is an excellent book for bringing them up. Hmm no wonder I think you are so smart.
Kids who are very good fencers fence for themselves. There is value to them in fencing. They can't be doing it for their parents or their coach. It has to be their activity.
The best reward for a kid for any activity is having someone who will keep up with their will to learn. A good coach does not give the same lessons to everyone and will make sure the fencer is learning what they need to learn.
If a fencer comes home less than once a week with an answer to the "how was your 65 dollar lesson?" with the answer of same old some old, time for a new coach.
Make sure the fencer is learning and excited about learning.
The Momster

[jBirch]

Common problem and I don't think anyone really has it figured out.

The problem with rewards is that they become rights if overused: if I do something, I expect the reward. If I don't get it, the "lack of reward" becomes a "negative punishment".

At our salle, we have 1 hr lessons broken down into a 10 minute game, 5 minute stretching/calisthetics (push ups, leg raises, etc...), 25 minute lesson and 20 minutes of bouting. During bouting and warm up, students have an opportunity to socialise. During the lesson portion, they're usually drilling so they only really socialise with their partner.

Some of the students want 1-1 private lessons, which one of the coaches will give. The students are focused and working hard during those lessons so we tend not to get too many disruptive kids during those.

As to the students that obviously don't want to be there, I usually just wait for them to leave. I can manage their behaviour well enough that they don't really bother any of the other fencers and I'll kick them out for the night if they're really bad, but those kids usually have other issues in their lives besides learning to fence. Sometimes as coach, we also become guidance councillor (though it would be nice to have the training to do that too). How you manage that relationship is sometimes as important as how you teach the kid to fence.

And for that stuff, I just try to be a positive role model. When my wife comes to the salle (which is rarely), I drop what I'm doing and go give her a kiss. I make a point of studying the rules and doing my fencing homework. I expect the kids to fence hard, work hard and think hard. I try to be humble, but in charge. I make a point of listening to their stories when we're in socialising time and make a point of shutting them down when we're in lesson time. I try to make it easy to tell the truth and painful to lie. When a student has a school problem (or just a personal problem) I do what I can to teach them how to manage it. As a Software Developer with an Honours degree, I like to help out with High School Math and Science which seems to be the most commonly complained about school issues. Sometimes, just knowing how effective praise can be is a significant tool. In short, I just try to be a person of honour and dedication.

As to Mo's idea, I'd disagree. Much of fencing is just grinding through the "levels". Hitting the target board so many times that your ears start to bleed and you can do organic chemistry at the same time as a double disengage is just part of sport. Some students relish the hard, grinding, work. Some just need to be entertained. The grinders will go on to greatness (regardless of what you as coach do), while the entertainers will find something more exciting to play with. I used to think that I could do something about this, but I've come to the conclusion that I can't. The trick, in my mind, is to structure the salle environment so that both groups are welcome, though the grinders get preferential treatment.

Hope this helps.