Cramping

[ToucheVerte]

As an observer, I am constantly amazed by the almost total absence of physical care for top fencers between bouts at the NACs. Apart from calling a USFA trainer in extreme cases of cramp, I have yet to see anyone receiving treatment between bouts to relieve the build up of lactic acid in the legs during extremely long days. Am I missing something?

[noodle]

nope.

[thrush]

Nope, you haven't missed anything. You're expected to keep fencing; no time-outs or breaks.

[lefty_monster]

Athletes are expected to take care of themselves. That is why a coach is sometimes a great asset.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by ToucheVerte

I have yet to see anyone receiving treatment between bouts to relieve the build up of lactic acid in the legs during extremely long days. Am I missing something?

At one of the Richmond NACs we had a sports massage person on hand and that was pretty great (till the USFA effectively killed it off). Was that sort of what you had in mind? I guess I don't really understand exactly what you are talking about, so please expound.

[erooMynohtnA]

I feel like I should remind everyone in this thread that cramps are just a theory. As such, USFA athletes are entitled to competing theories of sport.

Many scientists labeled "the fringe" by atheist demogogues offer a different theory: cramps are the wrath of God. This is supported by scripture as there are no biblical references to cramps. Next time you think you have a "cramp" you should just pray it away.

Clearly, the USFA believes the right to choose rests with the athletes. As such, they don't endorse non-believer trainers and their dangerous non-beliefs, nor do they force cramp theory upon the independent-minded and educated fencing community. Maybe those "cramping" athletes just need a little less "lactic" "acid" and a little more Bible.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Since when is a cramp a medical condition?

Pain is part of sport.

[ToucheVerte]

Yes - as a former endurance athlete, I sometimes experienced severe cramping during very long events. Apart from drinking liquid, ensuring that I had adequate salt in my system was not always enough, and massaging the quads or calf muscles was a necessity.

At the Dallas NAC, I saw two of the finalists repeatedly crippled by cramps, watched by their coaches in silence. No one massaged the affected area during time outs or between bouts to relieve the build up of lactic acid. Forgive my ignorance, but are coaches just considered intellectual assets in the fencing world?

[lefty_monster]

If I start to cramp, I rub my own legs. Or hand. Or neck. Or whatever is cramping. Sometimes if a parental unit is there, I can get them to help.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by ToucheVerte

Yes - as a former endurance athlete, I sometimes experienced severe cramping during very long events. Apart from drinking liquid, ensuring that I had adequate salt in my system was not always enough, and massaging the quads or calf muscles was a necessity.

At the Dallas NAC, I saw two of the finalists repeatedly crippled by cramps, watched by their coaches in silence. No one massaged the affected area during time outs or between bouts to relieve the build up of lactic acid. Forgive my ignorance, but are coaches just considered intellectual assets in the fencing world?

you make way too many assumptions about the nature of the sport and the nature of coaching in the sport. are you new?

[dridge]

Originally Posted by ToucheVerte

As an observer, I am constantly amazed by the almost total absence of physical care for top fencers between bouts at the NACs. Apart from calling a USFA trainer in extreme cases of cramp, I have yet to see anyone receiving treatment between bouts to relieve the build up of lactic acid in the legs during extremely long days. Am I missing something?

Yes, you are.

[the ancient one]

As of June 2007 the minutes of the latest FIE medical commissions discussion of cramps:
"...
Proposal 3: “Modify FIE Rule t.33” to admit cramp as a treatable condition in competition (submitted by van Dugteren, President of Medical Commission).
Recent high-profile instances of exercise-associated muscle cramp having diminished the quality of fencing at international competitions, the Medical Commission again studied the question of adding cramp to the definition of treatable injury in competition. Extensive discussion, background and definitions are contained in the original proposal. After thorough discussion, the Commission recommended that muscle cramp should be added to t.33. and made minor corrections to the text.
Recommendation: The proposal to modify Rule t.33 is accepted, with modifications underlined as follows:
Injuries or cramp, withdrawal of a competitor
t.33. 1. For an injury or cramp which occurs in the course of a bout and which is properly attested by the delegate of the FIE Medical Committee or by the doctor on duty, the Referee will allow a break in the fight lasting no longer than 10 minutes. This break should be timed from the point when the doctor gave his opinion and be strictly reserved for the treatment of the injury or cramp which brought it about. If the doctor considers, before or at the end of the 10-minute break, that the fencer is incapable of continuing the fight, he will decide that the fencer should retire (individual events) and/or be replaced, if possible (team events) (cf. o.44.11 .a/b).
2. During the remainder of the same day, a fencer cannot be allowed a further break unless as a result of a different injury or cramp.
3. Should a fencer demand a break which is deemed by the delegate of the Medical Committee or by the doctor on duty to be unjustified, the Referee will penalise that fencer as specified in Articles t.114, t.117, t.120.
4. In team events a fencer judged unable to continue the bout by the doctor may, nevertheless, on the advice of the same doctor, fight in subsequent matches on the same day.
5. The Directoire Technique may modify the order of bouts in a pool in order to ensure the efficient running of the competition (cf. o.16.1).
Guidelines for dealing with exercise-associated muscle cramp will be included in the Medical Handbook (“Cahier des charges”).
If passed by the Congress, the Medical Commission must coordinate with both the Rules Commission and the Arbitrage Commission to ensure that rule t.33 is appropriately and effectively applied. The Arbitrage Commission, in particular, must emphasize to referees the meaning of the rule and accurate application.
Kamuti (HUN) also proposed that in cases where there is obvious injury/illness, or an inability on the part of the athlete to effectively defend him/herself, the Medical delegate and/or referee should be permitted to terminate the bout. This issue is to be sent to Rules Commission for deliberation.
..."

[ToucheVerte]

Originally Posted by noodle

you make way too many assumptions about the nature of the sport and the nature of coaching in the sport. are you new?

Yes - I am a parent. However, I am not making assumptions, just asking questions so that I can learn from those who understand the nature of the sport better than I.

[FoilyDeath]

This varies enormously from coach to coach...back home, my coach has a degree in sports therapy or some such, so he helps enormously if I do cramp, but over here, I just carry deep heat spray around and make sure I stretch. We have a trained EMT on our team though, so the last time one of our fencers cramped she just made sure to massage it at every break. Worked rather well.

[bigdawg2121]

Originally Posted by ToucheVerte

Yes - as a former endurance athlete, I sometimes experienced severe cramping during very long events. Apart from drinking liquid, ensuring that I had adequate salt in my system was not always enough, and massaging the quads or calf muscles was a necessity.

At the Dallas NAC, I saw two of the finalists repeatedly crippled by cramps, watched by their coaches in silence. No one massaged the affected area during time outs or between bouts to relieve the build up of lactic acid. Forgive my ignorance, but are coaches just considered intellectual assets in the fencing world?

Occasionally there is a massage therapist that will give massages at fencing tournaments (for a relatively small fee). Coaches will generally do what they can to help their athletes. Usually this involves telling them to stay hydrated and eat properly leading up to events although many will massage and try to do what they can to help relieve cramps. However, as cramping is not really a recognized injury at the moment there's an understanding that you deal with it off the strip or during breaks. Yes, in fencing coaches tend to be intellectual assets (I assume that you mean primarily involved in instructing technique or providing tactical assistance etc.) but fencing tends to be more intellectual than most sports. Also, current research seems to indicate that lactic acid is actually a muscle fuel that's created to enable muscles to work longer periods of time during periods of above average exertion and not an actual cause of fatigue.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by ToucheVerte

Forgive my ignorance, but are coaches just considered intellectual assets in the fencing world?

When at college, my coach is a guy in his early thirties, had been single until recently, and coaches a team of all women, and has no formal medical training. The thought of him massaging me in public is really awkward. When it comes to youth athletes, it may be entirely inappropriate. If I cramp up, I massage it myself, or find my boyfriend, or a teammate. I actually don't like people I don't know touching me at all, so.... yeah.

[pinkelephant]

I'm quite happy to have people massage me if I cramp - but only if they're male and gorgeous (including my husband).

[annacattiva]

Originally Posted by the ancient one

As of June 2007 the minutes of the latest FIE medical commissions discussion of cramps:
paraphrase: cramps count like injuries for stopping the bout
..."

Yeah, but that's just FIE. Anyone here see the ... gold medal, I think... men's foil bout at Big One (New England Collegiate Individuals)? I believe the bout committee was convened to discuss whether cramps counted as injuries that would get a 10 minute break. They didn't.

Anna

[Warrior Princess]

A coach has to be in alot of places at once. He/she's probably got alot more fencers in the event than just one, and possibly many fencers an another event as well. Did you also notice that those fencers try to stay relaxed (slow, deep, breathing taking in alot of oxygen)? The build up of lactic acid is what causes cramps, lack of oxygen cause lactic acid to form. Get more oxygen and you'll get less cramps.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by annacattiva

Yeah, but that's just FIE. Anyone here see the ... gold medal, I think... men's foil bout at Big One (New England Collegiate Individuals)? I believe the bout committee was convened to discuss whether cramps counted as injuries that would get a 10 minute break. They didn't.

Anna

No, the bout committee knew that cramps would not get a 10 minute break. The bout committee convened because the injury was being called something else (something about a joint, as I remember) by the trainer, and there was some debate as to whether or not that was an acceptable injury.

A very large percentage of that bout committee posts here, so they'd be able to give you a better description.