Non-sporting fencing?

[GuyW]

I apologize if this topic is politically incorrect or off-topic for this board...

I'm looking for information, books, websites, etc about non-sporting (ie, actual self-defense combat) use of epees, rapiers, etc., and commercial sources for those weapons.

Thank you.

[the ancient one]

State Prison?

[lefty_monster]

Sorry, dude. That hasn't been relevant in the past few hundred years.

I'd suggest an actual martial art for self-defense. Judo, maybe?

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by GuyW

I apologize if this topic is politically incorrect or off-topic for this board...

I'm looking for information, books, websites, etc about non-sporting (ie, actual self-defense combat) use of epees, rapiers, etc., and commercial sources for those weapons.

Thank you.

Here are some from my "traditional sword bookmarks. There are others as well but you'll have to sort for your own interests
http://www.samurai.com/5rings/
http://www.musketeer.org/
http://www.ahfi.org/frames.htm
http://www.hadesign.co.uk/BFHS/tret6.htm
http://www.kmoser.com/classicalfencing.htm
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/%7Ewew/fencing.html
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/fencing.html
http://www.thehaca.com/
http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm
http://www.musashiusa.org/
http://mac9.ucc.nau.edu/manuscripts/pcapo/
http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/%7Elimttk/tcclink.htm
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/%7Ewew/other/gr/
http://www.iosp.org/
http://www.latourdulac.com/fencing/patri.html
http://www.hubat.com/servlets/search...t=12.31&next=1
http://webusers.anet-stl.com/%7Enuerble/index.htm
http://members.shaw.ca/ubik/thread/
http://www.fencing.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
http://www.martinez-destreza.com/

[GuyW]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

Here are some from my "traditional sword bookmarks. There are others as well but you'll have to sort for your own interests...

Thank you for this informative response...

[snarsdale]

If you want real (antique) weapons, try http://www.galeriefischer.com

The catalogues are in German, however. You can also try the Christie's, Sotheby's and Butterfield and Butterfield auction houses.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by GuyW

I apologize if this topic is politically incorrect or off-topic for this board...

I'm looking for information, books, websites, etc about non-sporting (ie, actual self-defense combat) use of epees, rapiers, etc., and commercial sources for those weapons.

Thank you.

I have a suggestion for the use of the epee in self defense. Find a top epee coach. Fence sport epee for several years. Buy an epee. Sharpen the epee. Fence epee normally with more emphasis on not being hit. (Make sure to use a pistol grip the whole time.)

I'll guarantee that you would dominate in a duel.

[statisticool]

Hi GuyW,

Nick Evangelista had a book out some years ago, called Fighting With Sticks, which is on that topic, which also might interest you.

[crquack]

Anthony DeLongis has a nice DVD called "Fighting with cutlass and sabre". It is published by Cold Steel and you can order it from their site.

The first part which is taught by ADL is IMHO excellent. The second part is taught by the Cold Steel owner Lynn Thompson.

DVDs and videos on actual fighting methods using big blades are quite rare (as opposed to knife-fighting ones which are ten a penny). I find that learning about this stuff from books is difficult.

Extrapolating fighting with sticks to big blades is of limited value.

[HDG]

I find that I rarely have a rapier (or parrying dagger) handy at those times when I might need one for self defense. Vexing...

[veeco]

I find that I rarely need anything for self defense. Other than my 2 legs to run, maybe.

[Phaeton]

GuyW:

I've been reading a few of your posts in various threads that I've been looking through. There's a choice that you're going to have to make. Sport fencing and any other kind of fencing are pretty far removed. They mix about as well as oil and water, or to take it one degree further: francium and water. Things tend to blow up in the face of anyone trying to apply any kind of "historical" logic to modern day sport fencing.

Wherein lies an inherent and inevitable choice. You can chose to (if you're in Escondido I assume your son is training with No Fear) go the route of sport fencing with your son or depart on some tangential historical study that is pretty much irrelevant to modern day self defense and sport, but has value as an enjoyable historical study. It really is all about what you enjoy. I love competing. I'm out there every tournament I have the chance to go to. Sport fencing is my cup of tea. Doesn't mean it is yours.

But if it's not you're not going to do well mixing things up and around. There may be a few people on this forum who disagree, but they are generally wrong and the exceptions are few.

When you drop by the division tournament on the 18th you can ask around see who else has an interest in historical combat. The people may not be many.

[VorpalCat]

I was the only female long-time (i.e. more than six months) member of my college club. Every so often a new female would show up, claiming ideas of using fencing for self-defense. I loved the look on their faces when I told them that if attacked, imo the best thing they could do with their fencing equipment would be to drop the bag and run like hell, hoping that their attacker would either trip over the equipment or be distracted/alarmed by the clatter the thing makes hitting the ground.

[tkexi991]

There is always Filipino eskrima. Or learn to make and use prison shives. The prison shiv is the bastard child of dueling weapons.

[sir alasdair]

I think I know where you are coming from on this as it is similar to my reasons for beginning to fence in the first place. As a long-time season pass holder to the local renaissance faire and a traveler to many others around the country, I own and wear many different weapons on my belt/waist/back and boot. My screenname on this forum is a result of that particular interest, in fact. It is actually a remote possibility that I would use a rapier or smallsword for real defense if necessary. It is rare but not unheard of for a drunk or overly jealous a$$hole patron at a renaissance faire to get in the face of or pull the sword of a "costumed patron" because they feel threatened or a need to prove their machismo by picking a fight. That is why they have peace-bond rules (i.e. zip ties) to insure weapons cannot be pulled. Us "regulars" have some leeway since we have some trust with the faire management, and we are often the "first responders" when emergencies of any nature happen on-site.

sorry for the thread drift...

If you truly want to learn to wield and use a period accurate weapon such as a rapier, your best bet in my honest opinion is to start by locating a "military reenactment guild" at a local renaissance faire and join up. At my home faire, in Wisconsin, it is the Guild of St. Michael. They teach pike usage, rapier and dagger, rapier and buckler, broadswords, fire cannon (one of which is actually a railgun from the 1500's), and even launch pumpkins and watermelons with a trebuchet.

As far as sourcing weapons - that depends on your budget. I have a $700 German-style reproduction rapier from "Arms and Armour" that is modeled from a weapon in the "Wallace Collection" in London, UK. It was surreal to go there in 2000 and actually see the weapon it was cast from. My first rapier, which has gone the way of eBay, was from museumreplicas.com and a $100 cheapo, but felt and moved in an "accurate" fashion, regardless. Del Tin and Albion are two others I would recommend. I also own and wield an "Arms and Armour" 17th century reproduction smallsword which utilizes a Triplette epee blade, with the point sharpened down. So erooMynohtnA 's suggestion is actually practicable, for me anyways...

[slowgraffiti515]

distance parry?

[GuyW]

Thank you for the responses. Lots of assumptions (understandable) about the details of the "self-defense" I was talking about. In any case, I intend to followup with personal research, and probably not post anymore on the topic here.

However, the no-self-defense posts are, IMHO, naive and not well considered. Moreover, they can mislead folks who haven't considered all the issues, or who have a sheltered life experience.

Choose to be sheep or a victim if you wish, but I will always defend myself and my family by any and all means available, from modern firearms to knives to quarterstaffs and martial arts. By the way, Chuck Norris, a martial arts champion, carries a pistol...

Given my outlook and the development of the hand-eye coordination and footwork skills from fencing training - considering a rapier is just common sense. If you wish to consider fencing as merely a game, that's your call.

"Self-defense" with a rapier does not involve duels (that is mutual combat), nor probably use against guns (something about talking a knife to a gunfight...), but possibly against knives, bats, hands, etc.

EDITED IN: BTW, my views here (and I refer obliquely to another post of mine) has _nothing_ to do with the concept of CF or probably any other ideology, it is merely a pragmatic view, IMHO.

Thanks again for the responses, and I look forward to learning much at these Forums.

[jkdjeff]

As far as I can tell, most people were simply trying to point out that a rapier wouldn't be a practical tool to keep on hand for self-defense situations. It's not like you can walk around wearing a sword on a baldric anymore.

If you happen to have one handy, great, it's a potential tool, but it's a lot more likely that you'd have access to a knife or a stick in most situations.

Speaking as a beginning fencer but an experienced martial artist:

As far as weapons and self defense in general goes, introducing ANY weapon into a self-defense situation unless you are highly trained in its use is a very bad idea, and is much more likely to end poorly for you than for the other guy. Even guns are risky to use in close quarters unless you've been trained in weapons retention techniques.

So unless you plan on devoting large amounts of training time to a weapon you'll rarely have access to, I'd highly recommend choosing some sort of empty-handed self defense art rather than trying to develop skill with a rapier or any other sword, to that end.

[crquack]

Given my outlook and the development of the hand-eye coordination and footwork skills from fencing training - considering a rapier is just common sense. If you wish to consider fencing as merely a game, that's your call.

OK, I have to bite.
Although I share much of your sentiment regarding self defense and the means thereof, I must take an issue with the above statement.

First of all, there is nothing wrong with using a sword for self defense if that is all you have available or allowed to have where you live. One of the leading experts on all aspects self-defense, Marc MacYoung, advocates use of a sword for home defense (or so I am told, I have not heard him say this myself).

But why rapier? It is a long pointed stick. Are you going to carry it around with you? I suspect not. Are you going to retain it for home defense? In that case a shorter sword, such a wakizashi or a cutlass with a point *and* an edge is more likely to be useful given the confined spaces. Unless you live in a castle...

Fencing by itself is useful in training attributes for self defense such as linear speed, accuracy, eye-hand coordination and above all judgement of distance. As a sole art for self-defense it is all but useless. However, many people I know in other martial walks of life have fencing background.

If you wish to learn to use big blades for self defense find Tuhon Leo Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia and ask him to teach you. There are few equal and probably none better. But fencing? I do not think so...

[GuyW]

Originally Posted by jkdjeff

...It's not like you can walk around wearing a sword on a baldric anymore....

I haven't assumed that, but that's a footnote in any case.

Originally Posted by jkdjeff

...As far as weapons and self defense in general goes, introducing ANY weapon into a self-defense situation unless you are highly trained in its use is a very bad idea, and is much more likely to end poorly for you than for the other guy. Even guns are risky to use in close quarters unless you've been trained in weapons retention techniques.

Baloney - the unsubstantiated concept that the victim having a gun, causes (or even correlates to) a situation ending more poorly for the victim, has been disproven long ago.

In some situations, retreat (if possible) is clearly the best tactic. And avoidance of self-delusion is always a wise course. That said, many people, with little-to-no training have defended themselves with a myriad of objects. Maybe they were lucky....but would they have been equally lucky had they capitulated?

What matters the most is a will to live, and repudiation of the victim mindset.