Repechage

[ToucheVerte]

Can someone please explain repechage to me? Along with every other parent I met in Dallas, we had no idea what was really going on after the round of 64. It also slowed down the tournament to an absolute crawl.

[catwood1]

I am not an expert on it by any means, so feel free to correct me.

Basically, once the tournament has a complete bracket of 32, it is stopped, reseeded, then started again in a double elimination format. If you lose twice you are out, if not you keep fencing. Beyond that, I don't understand it.

[bigdawg2121]

Repechage is a double elimination format. In our case it goes from L32 to L8. Simple explanarion follows:

Lose twice you go home. Win 3 times you make the 8.

It helps eliminate some randomness, gives you more good fencing for your top 32 and ensures that 8 are most likely the 8 fencers fencing the best that day.

[ToucheVerte]

Sorry - I'm still confused. So if you are the lowest seed after pools to reach the Top 32, are you automatically 32nd seed (after reseeding), and then who are the seeds that you will face in repechage? Also, if you lose your first bout, win the second, then win the third, are you in the top 8 or do you have to win another bout?

[dekko]

Touched on above but the main reason you may have seen a big slow down to the event was once the 32 was reached each round on the 'losers bracket' side is reseeded based on who is there and their seed and if they have fenced each other yet or not. Assuming they haven't fenced each other yet in the bracket it's high seed versus low seed. If a fencer makes the 32 and wins 3 in a row they are in the final 8 and wait for the other 4 fencers from the other side of the bracket to fill in the other 4 spots. The event moves from 32-24-16-12-8, with the other 4 taking the lower 4 spots against the 4 fencers who won the 3 in a row taking the top 4 spots.

I know this seems like quite a bit of detail but it really isn't, hopefully this gives you a broad strokes view of why you saw the event crawl after the 32 was made.

Also, congrats on your kid making it that far in a point event.

[bigdawg2121]

Edit: forgot about the 16. I'm a dunce but I blame posting via cell. It matters what order you win your bouts in. Thanks for doing a more thorough job Dave.

[ToucheVerte]

Thanks. I am a bit dense, so please bear with me: "once the 32 was reached each round on the 'losers bracket' side is reseeded based on who is there".

What is the 'losers bracket side'? Are these the fencers who lost their first bout in the round of 32?

[seak]

si...crude explanation follows

you reseed the 32 remaining, then fence like a normal DE
The 16 who lose head over to the losers bracker the 16 who stay on are on the winners side
winners fence winners, losers fence losers
if you lose for a 2nd time you're done and finish between 24-32
rinse and repeat down to the 8
top 4 seeds in the 8 are the 4 that won three bouts in a row

[ToucheVerte]

OK. I'm almost there. 'Winners fence winners' - so I win my first bout in the top 32. Now I fence another winner and I win again, while the 16 losers face off. Who do I fence the third time? Aren't I already in the top eight (and also one of the top 4 seeds)?

[IanSerotkin]

Repechage (French: repêchage, lit. "We don't know what's going on")

Repechage is a component sometimes used as part of a Direct Elimination table at U.S. National fencing events. It is no longer used by the FIE or by most other National fencing governing bodies.

In a tournament utilizing repechage, Direct Elimination proceeds as normal until the round of 32. Repechage is used to eliminate fencers until there are 8 fencers remaining. Then, standard single-elimination DEs resume for the rounds of 8, 4, and 2.

In short, repechage means that fencers get a second chance if they lose one bout. If they win, they advance, just as in a regular format. If they lose one bout, they get to keep fencing until they lose a second bout or win the entire competition.

START of ROUND 1:
No one has fenced yet.

In the first round of repechage, everyone fences who they would have ordinarily fenced (the #1 vs. #32, #16 vs. #17, etc.).

START of ROUND 2:
16 fencers with 1 victory
16 fencers with 1 defeat

Then, the winners' bracket continues for one more round (the #1 vs. #16, assuming the higher seeds win) and the losers fence each other in a corresponding losers bracket (#17 vs. #32). The losers of the losers bracket have lost twice, so they are eliminated.

START of ROUND 3:
8 fencers with 2 defeats (ELIMINATED IN ROUND 2)
8 fencers with 2 victories and 0 defeats
8 fencers with 1 victory and then 1 defeat
8 fencers with 1 defeat and then 1 victory

Here's where it gets a little hairy. We reseed the 16 fencers with a loss into a table of 16 and fence it until only 4 fencers remain. The 12 fencers who lose during this bracket have 2 losses and are defeated, and the 4 fencers left will all have three victories total and one loss.

We also have the 8 undefeated fencers fence one more round in the winners' bracket. The winning 4 fencers advance out of repechage, and the losers have 1 defeat and have to fence some more.

So we're down to 12 fencers total:

START of ROUND 4:
8 fencers with 2 defeats (ELIMINATED IN ROUND 2)
8 fencers with 1 victory and 2 defeats (ELIMINATED IN ROUND 3)
4 fencers with 2 victories and 2 defeats (ELIMINATED IN ROUND 3)
4 fencers with 3 victories and 1 defeat (winners of the losers' bracket)
4 fencers with 2 victories and 1 defeat (losers of the winners' bracket)
4 fencers with 3 victories (winners of the winners' bracket)

Now, the winners of the losers' bracket and the losers of the winners' bracket are seeded into a table of 8 and fence one round. The losers have 2 defeats and are eliminated, and the winners advance out of repechage!

END of ROUND 4:
8 fencers with 2 defeats (ELIMINATED IN ROUND 2)
8 fencers with 1 victory and 2 defeats (ELIMINATED IN ROUND 3)
4 fencers with 2 victory and 2 defeats (ELIMINATED IN ROUND 3)
4 fencers with 2 or 3 victories and 2 defeats (ELIMINATED IN ROUND 4)
4 fencers with 3 or 4 victories and 1 defeat (winners of the Round 4 bracket)
4 fencers with 3 victories (winners of the winners' bracket)

The 8 fencers still standing are the final 8--they're seeded into a table of 8, repechage is over, and the tournament finals commence.


*A slight bit of this explanation was taken from www.dominionfencing.org

[bigdawg2121]

It might help to draw it out. Take a table of 32 put lines going out of the back side as well. The folks that win in the 32 all move forward. The ones that lose move back. The losers fence. The ones that lose again go home. The ones that win hang out. The first winners from the 32 fence. Winners in that round are in the 12 at least and hang out. These 8 fence each other and 4 are the top 4 seeds in the 8. The other 4 wait an eternity for their chance next bout in the 12. Meanwhile, back at the ranch 8 kids have won a bout and lost a bout and 8 have lost a bout then won a bout. They fence. The losers have lost 2 and are the 24. The remaining 8 fence each other and the losers are in the 16. The 4 winners move to the 12 to fence the poor saps that won 2 early and then lost and have been waiting around for a bout. They fence . 4 winners make the bottom half of the eight. 4 losers are the 12. In between folks get reseeded, parents look confused, coaches go gray and the smart fencers stay warm and wait.

[DJ Apostrophe]

Repechage is complex and can be confusing... Here's how it works...

Imagine you have a tournament with a complete table of 128. You fence the 128 normally, the 64 normally, and now you have 32 fencers left. This table is fenced normally (no reseed yet), with the exception that the 16 fencers who lost are not out of the tournament yet. For demonstration purposes, you now have 16 fencers who are Ws (won their first bout) and 16 fencers who are Ls.

Next the 16 Ws fence each other (normal progression from a table of 32 into a table of 16, i.e. 1 v. 16 (assuming seeds hold) 2 v. 15, etc).*

Now you have 8 fencers who are WW (won each of their first two bouts) and 8 fencers who are WL (won their first and lost their second).**

Those 8 fencers who are WW fence each other (still in normal table progression) and the 4 who win (WWW) make up the "Front Side" of the final 8. They will hold seeds 1-4 in the round of 8 table. They also have to wait a while before they fence again. The four who lose (WWL are now in the backside of the table (explained below).***

*At the same time that these 8 bouts were fenced (W v W) the 'backside' of the table begins to be fenced. Here the losers of the bouts in the round of 32 fence, I.e. the loser of the 1v32 bout will fence the loser of the 16v17 bout and so on down the bracket.

After these 8 bouts are fenced, you have 8 fencers who are now LL (they have two losses, are out of the competition and will place 25-32 based on seed out of pools) and 8 fencers who are now LW.

**The 8 WL fencers and the 8 LW fencers are now seeded into a table and fence each other. (Fencers get swapped so that they don't meet someone they have already fenced). The WL fencers get seeds 1-8 based on pool results and the LW fencers get seeds 9-16. The losers are out of the competition (wether WLL or LWL) and place 17-24 in the overall competition). This table continues though normal progression and the 8 remaining fencers fence. The four who lose are out and place 13-16. The four who win here are in "the top 12" and have to fence 1 more bout to make the top 8.

These fencers fence the fencers who went WWL from the 32 (and have probably been waiting a little while). The fencers who went WWL get seeds 1-4 in the table and the fencers that went XXW (could be either wins or losses on the first two bouts) get seeds 5-8. (Once again the table gets adjusted so that people don't fence an opponent for the second time). The four fencers who win have now made the top 8.

The four fencers who 'won out' from the 32 (WWW) are seeded into the final table in seeds 1-4 and the fencers who lost a bout are seeded 5-8. From here it is a straight DE table until you have a champion.

Clear as mud?

-w

[ToucheVerte]

Perfect! Thank you.

[gladius]

Why don't you visit the USFA web site and check on the various documents and information they provide?

Here is what I hope will be a helpful method to you and all the others who are not so sure they know what repêchage is (it means you get fished a second time, lucky you!).

Go to: http://www.usfencing.org/usfa/compon...leinfo/id,715/

and download the Operations Manual (2006 edition). While there download also the Athlete Handbook (2007-2008 edition) and read through it as well.

For repêchage go to Appendix Q in the Operations Manual and you'll find both a diagram for repêchage from a table of 16 and from a table of 32 (the latter is what interests you). You can read also the rest of the text which will explain you what's going on step-by-step. Then teach everyone else in your club how things work, and you'll do a good thing!

Good luck!

PS: If you think this is complicate, go to Germany where in some cadet competitions they do a repêchage from a table of 64. It does slow things down, in fact it takes an entire day to do just the table of 64 but many people get to do a lot of fencing...

[pinkelephant]

Then of course there is the German repechage system from 64, as operated by Team Ophardt. If you go to this link

http://www.fencingworldwide.com:8080...n/frameset.jsp

and click Control, you can follow a German international cadet competition through 3 rounds of pools, and DE with repechage from 64.

And then again there's the French system, also with repechage from 64 but with a slightly different system, as found on Engrade. If anyone's interested I could send them Engarde files of one I ran this year in GBR.

[AllezCat]

Originally Posted by gladius

For repêchage go to Appendix Q in the Operations Manual and you'll find both a diagram for repêchage from a table of 16 and from a table of 32 (the latter is what interests you). You can read also the rest of the text which will explain you what's going on step-by-step. Then teach everyone else in your club how things work, and you'll do a good thing!

This section of the Operations Manual is particularly good because it includes the section from the old Rules Book (since removed due to copyright problems, apparently) that shows a complete DE table populated with Star Trek characters.

It doesn't say which weapon they're fencing, though.

[DJ Apostrophe]

Originally Posted by AllezCat

This section of the Operations Manual is particularly good because it includes the section from the old Rules Book (since removed due to copyright problems, apparently) that shows a complete DE table populated with Star Trek characters.

It doesn't say which weapon they're fencing, though.

Picard and Q did fence sabre in an episode... (at one point you could actually get action figures that came with plastic sabres for these two characters)

and yes... I'm a nerd for knowing that...

-w

[mrbiggs]

What I would strongly recommend doing is taking the rulebook, making up some fencers you are familiar with, and doing it out yourself.

The only reason I have a vague understanding of what's going on is that my high school team once ran a small, in-team competition using repechage, so I have an idea of who goes where and when.

[fencerbill]

Appendix D to the USFA rulebook does have a repechage example with Star Trek characters.

The Appendix talks about nationalities being moved around in the losers bracket to avoid fencing someone from the same nationality. At NACs I am not sure whether they move people around to avoid the same Division or the same club. If you keep winning, you may fence someone from your club/division.

It is double elimination if you lose in the 32, 16 or 8. If you win in those rounds you can be eliminated with one loss. There will be at least 3 fencers that this happens to, they may finish anywhere from second to eighth.

[dberke]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

The Appendix talks about nationalities being moved around in the losers bracket to avoid fencing someone from the same nationality. At NACs I am not sure whether they move people around to avoid the same Division or the same club. If you keep winning, you may fence someone from your club/division.

No swaps are done to avoid club/division conflicts, just like a regular single-elimination bracket. The only swaps are done to avoid fencing someone you've already faced in an earlier round of the repechage.

However, swapping is NOT done when the final table of 8 is seeded. At that point, if you have to face someone again, then you have to fence them again.

Dan