Black Carding Youth Fencers

[Mo]

Dear Refs,
Watching Youth Fencers, 10, 12, 14 and Cadet fencers can be a real shocker.
Some of them throw their masks when they lose, don't shake hands and generally act like jerks.
Isn't the time to card them NOW instead of waiting until they are older? The meets don't count as much for making teams.
Having them understand in a totally serious way that mask throwing, whipping blades around etc is not ok at and early age seems to me to be a good thing.
What do you reffy people think about this??
The Momster

[fencerbill]

Completely agree, for what it's worth.

[veeco]

Oh yes, that is necessary.

Out of curiosity, is there a difference in how a black card is treated at the USFA level for kids and adults? I seem to recall that in France, when an adult is black carded, they might not be allowed to fence for a couple of competitions. Not sure what the rule is for kids and what it is here.

[BrodeurNJD30]

Originally Posted by Mo

Dear Refs,
Watching Youth Fencers, 10, 12, 14 and Cadet fencers can be a real shocker.
Some of them throw their masks when they lose, don't shake hands and generally act like jerks.
Isn't the time to card them NOW instead of waiting until they are older? The meets don't count as much for making teams.
Having them understand in a totally serious way that mask throwing, whipping blades around etc is not ok at and early age seems to me to be a good thing.
What do you reffy people think about this??
The Momster

A black card is only useful if the bout committee is going to uphold it, I have seen in club youth events the organizers ask for it to not happen or change it to a Group Three red card. I have thrown one at a tournament on the Island, this after the kid get a group three after the first period, proceeded to act inappropriately and ended the bout by two fisting his opponent in the face, the owner of the club flipped on the kid (not his student btw) having only seen the last part but did not feel a black card was going to do anything substantial. Saddest thing was this happened in the gold medal bout. My personal feeling on it is the kid isn't really going to understand the significance of a black card and its the parents and coaches job to come down on them. If the parent doesn't scold the child or worse after they come over to them say its okay, it's the referee's fault, what message is that sending?

[BrodeurNJD30]

I think that this is more of a parents Issue. If the parents dont come down on the kid, or worse tell them its okay, it is the ref's fault they are sending a message that acting this way is okay. Also some organizers/club owners do not want black cards thrown at youth events. So even if we throw them they will not be upheld.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Sensitivity is the name of the game.

Sometimes a youth fencer might be on the verge of tears and really is having a hard time shaking hands. Maybe the handshake looked a little weak. Nobody is perfect and pulling a card is stupid in that situation.

Same thing with strip issues. Some youth fencers are new to the national scene, so they miss their calls. Be a little understanding and lenient.

You gotta put yourself in the shoes of the kid in these situations.

But as for really coarse trash talk, mask punts, assault, ect.... just black card the kid and chew up the parents too.

[mrmgp]

Originally Posted by Mo

Dear Refs,
Watching Youth Fencers, 10, 12, 14 and Cadet fencers can be a real shocker.
Some of them throw their masks when they lose, don't shake hands and generally act like jerks.
Isn't the time to card them NOW instead of waiting until they are older? The meets don't count as much for making teams.
Having them understand in a totally serious way that mask throwing, whipping blades around etc is not ok at and early age seems to me to be a good thing.
What do you reffy people think about this??
The Momster

Not a ref, but maybe the young fencers are just ignorantly imitating some of the "adult" fencers out there, thinking this is the way they are supposed to behave.

Let's just hope they don't take up screaming after scoring a touch.

[seak]

Originally Posted by mrmgp

Let's just hope they don't take up NOT screaming after scoring a touch.

I corrected your post for you

[jeff]

I really endorse DFP=H on this - be sensitive to the fact that this is a kid, but punish them appropriately when it's really called for. I have the luxury of only reffing locally, where it's easier to be informal, but I think it a good idea to differentiate between a child who has lost control of himself and can be brought in line, and a child who needs to be vigorously straightened out.

[mrmgp]

Originally Posted by seak

I corrected your post for you

Uh... thanks. I think.

I see you are from North Carolina. Wouldn't happen to be anywhere close to Greensboro, would you?

[seak]

like 45 or so minutes

[Peach]

Kids survive black carding JUST fine, just as they survive other direct consequences of their actions, especially if you don't act as if you're the Hammer of God descending on them or lecture them too much. They will occasionally sniffle a little, but crying doesn't kill a kid or I'd be six feet under fifty years gone with moss coming out my ears. It's their parents and their coaches who treat black cards (or poor grades, for that matter) as a fate worse than death. I've had parents call me over the summer trying to get me to change a B+ to an A because their son was devastated by it. The son wasn't the devastated one.

Thanks, Mo, for making a well-needed point.

[Miglin]

I agree. I think that if you hold off on appropriate punishment, then young fencers will obviously develop poor manners and sportsmanship. If they want to fence competetively so young, then they must be held to the same standard.

[mrmgp]

Originally Posted by seak

like 45 or so minutes

I'm planning on moving to the Greensboro area after I complete my BA in History a couple of years from now. Just wondering if you happened to live close to the area.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Wow, thanks for all the rep for that post guys.

I've never gotten so many reps from one post. Ever.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Sensitivity is the name of the game.

While there's nothing wrong with your post, I just want to emphasize that it's important not to avoid giving cards just because it's a kid. If someone wants to compete, they play by the rules. If they cannot manage to do that (at age 10 or age 35), then it's the referee's responsibility to give the competitor the cards that he earns.

As a referee, I don't want to have to give any cards. I also don't not want to give any cards. The fencer does something, and I enforce the rules. That's all.

I try to manage the strip in such a way that nothing gets out of hand. If a fencer "forgets" to shake hands, I don't pull out a card. I just remind the fencer to shake hands. If I remind the fencer that he must shake hands with his opponent, and he refuses, then he gets the card he has earned. The referee should be reasonable, consistent, and fair. He should never be lenient (in the sense of "that deserved a card, but maybe I'll let it slide because...").

[Mo]

Originally Posted by BrodeurNJD30

I think that this is more of a parents Issue. If the parents dont come down on the kid, or worse tell them its okay, it is the ref's fault they are sending a message that acting this way is okay. Also some organizers/club owners do not want black cards thrown at youth events. So even if we throw them they will not be upheld.

It is kind of a parent issue but that brings in the old universal problem in that "parents don't know anything."
So many of the clubs have no guts. They don't want to make the kids responsible for their behavior. If it is out of the parent's hands, it can go a lot further.
Most of the kids are very good. But there are a bunch that aren't. They have gotten away with this behavior for so long that no one wants to be the bad guy.
Perhaps NAC events need a Bout Committee bad guy who roams around looking for ill behaved persons. Someone with authority to make people cut the crap immediately. He or she would be able to kick people out of events no matter if they are a fencer, a parent or a coach.
It seems that behavior gets worse all the time.
There are people that push. "Well I got away with that, I will try this... hey I got away with that, how about this?? HOLY COW I can do whatever I want and as long as I do it with authority, no one will say BOO"
It is very sad.
If a black card is given it should be enforced at any event. The fencer should leave. They are done, finished, it is over for them for the day.
The Momster

[BrodeurNJD30]

Thats all nice and good, and should be the way. But how often do we get the same message coming down from the BC. Not just at national events but all of them. Depending on who the kid is, his coach, his club affiliation the BC may recinde the black card making its action useless. I was supervising one of our younger referees during a youth tournament a while ago, and the kid after the one minute break, flipped out. Throwing his mask and having a tempertantrum. I walked over and calmly explain that he had a group three red card, I explained that if his action continued he would have a black and explained what those ramifications would and could be. During the second period he started to lose it again, after a halt i walked over to him and once again calmly re-stated what could happen and gave him a minute to get his stuff together mentally (I know this is against procedure). further down the line we go and on the 15th touch scored upon him, he two fists the other kid in the face. The owner of the club flipped on the kid and gave him a good verbal lashing. After the lashing me and the owner spoke and he did not want to throw a black card to the kid. After explaining the entire bout to him and that he already had a group three he was hesitant but let me throw the card. The kid was not one of ours, but in a less than 15 person tournaments black cards dont look too good for the club itself. Saddest thing was this a local circuit event and the kid was in the gold medal bout. had he just chilled he still would have been in contention for the overall points champion.

[noodle]

why would one treat the youth fencer any differently than the adults? fencing's rules of conduct don't change in the youth events, do they?

if a kid throws a tantrum, card them. sometimes a kid needs an authority figure other than their parents to set them straight. don't rely on parents to wrangle the kids.

and, of course, just like DFP said, context is important. however, i would do the same for adult fencers. if, as the example was, the kid is too emotional to immediately shake hands after a bout, i wouldn't necessarily card them. same with an adult. as long as it gets done in a timely manner, or gets done when i'm telling them to do it.

[pinkelephant]

I black carded an under 12 fencer a few weeks ago. He had kicked his mask to the end of the piste, with attitude, throwing a complete tantrum. I'm told he then punched his father in the stomach, but I didn't see that. I explained that that meant he was disqualified and received no placing, and that I would have to report it to British Fencing.

His father took him outside, and about half an hour later, the youngster came back in and apologised, tears streaming down his face. He had learned a valuable lesson, at a time BEFORE he is at a national championship or on a foreign trip and it matters for team selection. Dad was completely supportive. Most importantly, all the other kids in the room saw it happen, as it was the last fight still going on in that round. They will all be as good as gold for some time to come.

I did then take some time to chat to the kid about the need to sometimes let off steam when you are disappointed with yourself, and alternative, non-contentious ways to do it.