Made in China

[Chuck F.]

What "club level" gear is out there that is NOT made in China?

I am not talking about higher-level European stuff, I am talking about cheap/high-volume stuff for beginners and for loaning club members.

Fencing Post? FDN? Blade/Physical Chess? ELI? Shellhouse? I know Triplette used to make all their softgoods in the US, but they are so difficult to deal with.

How about blades and weapons?

Masks?

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Chuck F.

What "club level" gear is out there that is NOT made in China?

I am not talking about higher-level European stuff, I am talking about cheap/high-volume stuff for beginners and for loaning club members.

Fencing Post? FDN? Blade/Physical Chess? ELI? Shellhouse? I know Triplette used to make all their softgoods in the US, but they are so difficult to deal with.

How about blades and weapons?

Masks?

Chuck,

For sub $100 fencing masks, you're looking at the shells being made in China and the finishing done in China - though there are some that are finished in Mexico. (If the finishing - putting on the bib, padding, and branding is done within a country then the product is "made in" that country.)

Blades - The budget stuff is all Chinese. The next step up would be the Russian forged blades and then you've got Leon Paul and BF (manufactred in the UK and France respectively.)

Uniforms - Some stuff is from China, some from Mexico.

In terms of quality, I've seen several quality grades coming out of China depending on the factory used.

Craig

[DangerMouse]

If I remember correctly, the Post Sport line is made in Mexico.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Where's the American Fencing Supply uniform made? IIRC, it's pretty cheap/low-level stuff that you can loan out and not worry about. My first stuff was Triplette (a Loooooooong time ago), my second set American Fencing Supply, my third and fourth sets were the Santelli FIE stretch kit (fabulously comfortable...incredibly fragile), and from there I went to Uhlmann WC (which has lasted forever). The AFS stuff was pretty club-like, as I recall.

[Chuck F.]

Originally Posted by Craig

Chuck,

For sub $100 fencing masks, you're looking at the shells being made in China and the finishing done in China - though there are some that are finished in Mexico. (If the finishing - putting on the bib, padding, and branding is done within a country then the product is "made in" that country.)

Blades - The budget stuff is all Chinese. The next step up would be the Russian forged blades and then you've got Leon Paul and BF (manufactred in the UK and France respectively.)

Uniforms - Some stuff is from China, some from Mexico.

In terms of quality, I've seen several quality grades coming out of China depending on the factory used.

Craig

How about that LP "USFA" branded stuff? Those masks are $80, and the uniforms are not too terribly expensive.

I would be interested to hear a confirmation about the Fencing Post (Post Sport) uniforms....

(FWIW, my concerns are more "political" that anything else, I suppose. It's not about quality so much. I just get so disgusted by some of the things I hear coming out of China. I would prefer to keep my money out of their hands right now, especially since I am in the beginning stages of starting a club, and will be potentially buying a lot of gear over the next few months and years.)

[FoilyDeath]

LP stocks a whole bunch of - relative to the rest of their stuff - cheap club gear. http://www.leonpaulusa.com/fencing/a...ipment_15.html
They also have a set of bright blue club jackets to make sure nobody takes them home after a loan.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by Beloit Fencer of Old

Where's the American Fencing Supply uniform made? IIRC, it's pretty cheap/low-level stuff that you can loan out and not worry about.

One can never be sure and everything changes. But I was talking with Cole Harkness at AFS a while ago and came away with the impression that their own branded stuff was US made. Obviously given the competitive nature of sales that may have changed.

Originally Posted by Beloit Fencer of Old

My first stuff was Triplette (a Loooooooong time ago), my second set American Fencing Supply, my third and fourth sets were the Santelli FIE stretch kit (fabulously comfortable...incredibly fragile), and from there I went to Uhlmann WC (which has lasted forever). .

Likewise my Uhlmann (made in Germany) stuff has lasted well. But as we're all aware Uhlmann is now switching to Chinese subcontractors. And I don't know which pieces are now chinese and which are made elsewhere. Their former German subcontrators have set themselves up to sell without the Uhlmann label:
http://www.fencewithfun.com/
So if you still want German made - possibly the most expensive then it's still available.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

*snip*
http://www.fencewithfun.com/
So if you still want German made - possibly the most expensive then it's still available.

Yeah...my Uhlmann stuff was made in 1995 or 1998...

You know, with our dollar dropping dramatically, it would make sense for someone to start making gear here in the US. It will be quite inexpensive for Europeans to buy...

[Chuck F.]

Originally Posted by Beloit Fencer of Old

You know, with our dollar dropping dramatically, it would make sense for someone to start making gear here in the US. It will be quite inexpensive for Europeans to buy...

Yeah, except for two problems:

American made stuff would never be competitively priced because American workers demand a fair wage, reasonable hours, safe working conditions, fringe benefits, and in some cases (gasp!) healthcare.

Secondly, American made stuff would be made by Americans. No-one wants to buy that. Trust me. I worked for seven years in a public high school in a low SES community where the vast majority of the kids don't get a college degree and either work in the service industry or manufacturing. From what I have seen first-hand, I wouldn't buy a box of toothpicks made in the US if I thought it was produced by some of those kids.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Chuck F.

How about that LP "USFA" branded stuff? Those masks are $80, and the uniforms are not too terribly expensive.

The Leon Paul products are manufactured in the UK. The shoes from Hi-Tec are manufactured in China.

Craig

(FWIW, my concerns are more "political" that anything else, I suppose. It's not about quality so much. I just get so disgusted by some of the things I hear coming out of China. I would prefer to keep my money out of their hands right now...

Looks like you won't be doing much Christmas shopping this year then. I guess you could buy some Nike stuff since they do produce a bunch of their gear in some other countries also.

Craig

[Purple Fencer]

Ever since China got Hong Kong as an export portal, they've realized they HAVE to bring the quality up on EVERYTHING coming out of the country if they truly want to take advantage of the economic potential. Clearly they saw what happened with Japan and South Korea and want to do the same (Chairman Mao should be rolling in his grave by now!)

But when you have a country that large, it takes time to get that point across to the manufacturers....remember, it was only a few decades ago that "made in Japan" meant badly made stuff

[Chuck F.]

Originally Posted by Craig

Looks like you won't be doing much Christmas shopping this year then.

Yeah, it's pretty tough. I was buying some clothes this weekend, and kept checking the labels. Luckily, clothing isn't TOO heavily dominated by Chinese manufacturers. The stuff I saw this weekend was made in Bangladesh, Madagascar, and somewhere in the Caribbean that I can't recall. I have also seen a lot of clothing coming from Pakistan these days.

Of course, when it comes to toys, appliances, electronics, tools..... sigh.

[FoilyDeath]

Originally Posted by Chuck F.

Yeah, it's pretty tough. I was buying some clothes this weekend, and kept checking the labels. Luckily, clothing isn't TOO heavily dominated by Chinese manufacturers. The stuff I saw this weekend was made in Bangladesh, Madagascar, and somewhere in the Caribbean that I can't recall. I have also seen a lot of clothing coming from Pakistan these days.

Of course, when it comes to toys, appliances, electronics, tools..... sigh.

Ok, I'm sorry, but I can't help but make a comment about how inane I find boycotting an entire friggin country. Now, I understand boycotting specific companies as part as a concerted effort to get them to change their work ethics, but all your doing by not buying chinese equipment for "political" reasons is making it all the more likely that whichever worker you seem to be worried is currently working without healthcare or adequate wages is going to find himself on the street with no job or wage at all, and no way to feed his family, and for all you know he might be forced to abandon his son and whore out his daughter. If you really want to help Chinese workers, there are hundreds of charities out there dedicated to it. Right now all your going to do is get them fired.

Now, if you don't want to buy fencing kit from China due to safety issues, thats a different issue and perfectly understandable.

Sorry about the political and somewhat belligerent response, but its a free market. Right now, fair wage and good working conditions just aren't the norm in many sectors of the Chinese market...thats the way it is. The best way to improve it isn't by taking away money from the Chinese, its by giving it to them.

[Chuck F.]

Originally Posted by FoilyDeath

Ok, I'm sorry, but I can't help but make a comment about how inane I find boycotting an entire friggin country. Now, I understand boycotting specific companies as part as a concerted effort to get them to change their work ethics, but all your doing by not buying chinese equipment for "political" reasons is making it all the more likely that whichever worker you seem to be worried is currently working without healthcare or adequate wages is going to find himself on the street with no job or wage at all, and no way to feed his family, and for all you know he might be forced to abandon his son and whore out his daughter. If you really want to help Chinese workers, there are hundreds of charities out there dedicated to it. Right now all your going to do is get them fired.

Now, if you don't want to buy fencing kit from China due to safety issues, thats a different issue and perfectly understandable.

Sorry about the political and somewhat belligerent response, but its a free market. Right now, fair wage and good working conditions just aren't the norm in many sectors of the Chinese market...thats the way it is. The best way to improve it isn't by taking away money from the Chinese, its by giving it to them.

You would have a point, except for the fact that you misunderstand my "political" motivation. You looked at two comments I made, and assumed that they were related. You were wrong.

I am not boycotting Chinese products as a show of support for Chinese workers. As you so astutely pointed out, that would make little sense.

I do hope, however, that someone as sharp and well educated as yourself might have some information to offer in regard to my original question. I eagerly await more of your wise insight, gentle guidance, and kind assistance.

[BenTheEMOP]

Originally Posted by FoilyDeath

Sorry about the political and somewhat belligerent response, but its a free market. Right now, fair wage and good working conditions just aren't the norm in many sectors of the Chinese market...thats the way it is.

It is a free market, and that means Chuck is free to choose to buy what he wants from whom he wants for whatever reason he wants.

Price is not the only variable a market can optimize. The same goes for profit.