11-07-2007, 10:21 AM
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#1 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Angel, London
Posts: 2,446
| Sabre DVD - a must see for ALL fencers and referees
http://www.ulufencing.net/FIE_ARBITRAGE_SABRE_1.1.mpg
We were shown this DVD at my exams in Prague 2 weeks ago and Arthur Kramer asked us to show it to everyone we could.
This shows with descriptions and live video some interpretations for the attack in sabre and also point in line after an attack.
My copy of the DVD is corrupted in certain sections, but I have managed to get the main part uploaded and ready to go. The file is 400 megabytes and the video 40 minutes long. Please Right click and "Save Target as..." to help with bandwidth.
Many thanks to Tim from the University of London fencing club for allowing me to use his hosting.
If anyone could mirror it or upload it to a public video site that would be wonderful.
Last edited by downunder; 11-09-2007 at 09:18 AM.
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11-07-2007, 10:44 AM
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#2 | | Admin
Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,580
| I'll have to chop it up for the max video size allowed, but I'll get this up on several sites right away.
Craig | |
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11-07-2007, 11:15 AM
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#3 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,408
| Very interesting video.
AE | |
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11-07-2007, 11:20 AM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 323
| Thanks DU - this is very valuable. | |
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11-07-2007, 11:32 AM
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#5 | | Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 31
| Thank you for posting this, very interestin stuff.
Can someone clarify the part about sabre not having prise de fers. Fencer A is retreating, beats the tip of his opponent's blade and hits, 2 lights. Was he saying that there's another term for it besides prise de fer, or was he saying that it's never A's touch unless there's only 1 light? | |
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11-07-2007, 11:37 AM
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#6 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
Posts: 8,587
| He defines prise de fer as an action that maintains blade contact, hitting in opposition. He thinks that what most people call prise de fer shouldn't be termed that.
-B
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11-07-2007, 11:46 AM
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#7 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,408
| I've head a number of referees lump "attacks du fer" and "prise de fer" under one category (prise). Presumably the Maitres were simply quibbling over terminology, but I wasn't clear on that part either. I hope to run through that part of the video again.
AE | |
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11-07-2007, 11:52 AM
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#8 | | Madness?
Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 1,948
| Quote:
Originally Posted by argonis  Thank you for posting this, very interestin stuff.
Can someone clarify the part about sabre not having prise de fers. Fencer A is retreating, beats the tip of his opponent's blade and hits, 2 lights. Was he saying that there's another term for it besides prise de fer, or was he saying that it's never A's touch unless there's only 1 light? | Quote: |
Originally Posted by USFCA Glossary Prise (-de-fer): One of the two “families” of attacks on the blade. Includes the bind, cross, development, and opposition. The opponent’s blade is controlled all the way to the target. Cf. “tac-au-fer”.
Attaque-au-fer: One of the two families of attacks on the blade (which see). Includes the beat, expulsion, and pressure. The blade is not held all the way to the target, nor is it moved and held. Sometimes called “Tac-au-fer”. | Characters
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11-07-2007, 11:57 AM
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#9 | | Have Blazer, Will Travel
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 9,884
| I suspect it will be less helpful to epee fencers and referees, but I suppose I'll have to watch it first.
Damn work, interfering with my fun. | |
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11-07-2007, 12:04 PM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005 Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 958
| Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder http://www.ulufencing.net/FIE_ARBITRAGE_SABRE_1.1.mpg
We were shown this DVD at my exams in Prague 2 weeks ago and Arthur Kramer asked us to show it to everyone we could.
This shows with descriptions and live video the current interpretations for the attack in sabre and also point in line after an attack. | That is a purely beautiful thing! Thank you very much for posting it. Do you know if there is one, or in the works, for foil?
The bulk of the discussion agrees with what I've always held, but the clarification on low "attacks" in sabre is a relatively new thing. | |
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11-07-2007, 12:12 PM
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#11 | | Madness?
Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 1,948
| I've watched a little of this. It is awesome and it would be awesome to have one for foil too.
The maestro 21 minutes into it, he has a pretty sweet saber. The guard is clear! Where'd he get that?
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11-07-2007, 12:16 PM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: I have no home
Posts: 1,855
| Entertaining video . I'm not convinced that the coaches and Kramer are saying the same things though...I can imagine lots of angry coaches wondering why the hell referees are calling things the way this video with their endorsement says to.
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11-07-2007, 01:33 PM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 3,174
| Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdawg2121 Entertaining video . I'm not convinced that the coaches and Kramer are saying the same things though...I can imagine lots of angry coaches wondering why the hell referees are calling things the way this video with their endorsement says to. | Yes, I see that definitely.
This has the potential to both clear things up and muddle the waters. But its a good piece of work. If it becomes "gospel" then it does make things easier.
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11-07-2007, 01:45 PM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005 Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 958
| Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdawg2121 I'm not convinced that the coaches and Kramer are saying the same things though. | I didn't notice that; they seemed pretty consistent to me. Could you give an example? | |
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11-07-2007, 02:14 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 182
| Just a random question...are any of the Italian coaches/administrators actually Italian? They have such strong accents...or at least it seems that way. | |
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11-07-2007, 02:26 PM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 4,971
| My thanks also for posting this. 400MB of download well worth it. Yay, broadband! Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldgar That is a purely beautiful thing! Thank you very much for posting it. Do you know if there is one, or in the works, for foil?
The bulk of the discussion agrees with what I've always held, but the clarification on low "attacks" in sabre is a relatively new thing. | Same here. What's striking to me is the insistence in which it's said the bent/withdrawn arm is said to not be an attack. Look at the section around 4 minutes into the clip. The wording is something like "it cannot be threat just at the beginning", "if I do this" (points at floor, withdraws arm to tierce), "then it is no longer an attack; it is a preparation". He illustrates this several times and several ways, including with a point attack: when his point is not directed at the valid target, it is not an attack.
That's exactly what I've always held, and what I've been told over and over "isn't the current interpretation of ROW", "isn't what the Europeans do". Here and at competitions I see lots of "attacks: called with the arm withdrawn partway through the action, or never directed towards target till the very last moment. I hope the sense of the attack related in the video gets restored to the field soon.
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11-07-2007, 02:55 PM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: MD
Posts: 236
| Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdawg2121 Entertaining video . I'm not convinced that the coaches and Kramer are saying the same things though...I can imagine lots of angry coaches wondering why the hell referees are calling things the way this video with their endorsement says to. | You mean the ones in the video? If not why would he want it distributed? | |
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11-07-2007, 02:57 PM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Illinois
Posts: 492
| That bouncing thumbs up/thumbs down smiley is hilarious.
It's strange seeing that on the video and not hearing Japanese. | |
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11-07-2007, 03:09 PM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005 Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 958
| Quote:
Originally Posted by pokey That bouncing thumbs up/thumbs down smiley is hilarious.
It's strange seeing that on the video and not hearing Japanese. | LOL -- Yes, that's obnoxious. | |
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11-07-2007, 03:24 PM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,028
| Some of the things in the video make sense, but I'm confused by the calls that appear to indicate an immediate continuation of the attack still takes ROW.
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