Policy Question – Is the USFA willing and able to make the bib target in foil?

[KD5MDK]

The FIE Congress will consider in its next meeting on Nov 24-25 a proposal to make the bib in foil valid target area. The proposal comes from the Italian and Brazilian Federations, so it has some serious fencing support already. It has been considered by the Rules, Referees, SEMI and Medical Committees and received widespread support. The Medical committee was uncomfortable with the Italian proposal but accepted the Brazilian one with the additional limit that it only applied to below the neckline. The Legal committee made no mention of it and the Promotions committee deferred to SEMI. SEMI stated there is no technical obstacle and the necessary trials have already occurred.

I think this change is coming. It is a major revision of how foil is played, a major revision in the equipment regulations, and represents the obsolescence of a massive amount of fencing gear. If so, the National Federations need to decide what they plan to do.

1) Adopt the change immediately. If this is the case, it will give the advantage that US international fencers will be experienced fencing against opponents with the same gear they will be facing at the international level. They will be accustomed to the extra exposed target area they will present and in how to hit it on their opponents. This is the path that I think will lead to the greatest probability of international success for US foil fencers. Drawbacks are very high – all US foil fencers will need to acquire a new mask or conductive patch for their existing one. If we imagine that a new model mask will cost on average $110, with 27,000 fencers and 1/3 of them fencing foil, we’re looking at a total additional cost of to US fencing as a community of nearly a million dollars. I suspect that many schools, recreational clubs etc would be pushed out of the USFA competition area and into their own, with the corresponding lower quality coaching, refereeing and training that come from being part of a smaller community. It will be harder for people who get started in those recreational clubs, high school leagues and so forth to join the USFA competitive structure, and a strong priority for many people has been to recruit exactly those people. Many USFA fencers may switch to epee.

2) Adopt the change after some delay (1 year, or otherwise). This means that we will eventually catch up to the World game, but our international fencers will be at a distinct disadvantage against their opponents who do adopt this change. Not just for the year when they are facing different rules domestically and internationally, but for the year or so after that when they have to catch up to their competition. The same financial pain and equipment costs will hit US fencers and clubs, although with a longer time to budget and plan for. Many USFA fencers may switch to epee one year later.

3) Adopt the change only for National competitions. Local competitions can continue to be conducted with non-valid bibs, but all USFA organized tournaments will have the bib as target area. This means that more fencers will have to deal with different standards at different levels; not just international fencers but anyone who goes to a NAC or SYC will be affected. To have a level playing field those fencers will need to have 2 masks, one for National training and one for local events. Lots of fencers already do this with lames, but only at places where local organizers can’t or won’t provide sufficient armory support. There will be confusion and complaints as some Divisions decide to enforce the rule at all of their tournaments, some only at their National Qualifiers, and others not at all. On the plus side, recreational and school fencers can easily transition to local USFA competitions.

4) The USFA could ignore this rule entirely. Our international fencers would have the new masks for their foreign trips, and they’d probably use them for club practice at the top foil clubs. If they were really confident they might wear them to NACs as well. However, they would not be required for USFA National competitions and everybody who attended those could pretend that nothing had changed at all. This is the option that will make it easiest to include and retain recreational and scholastic fencers into the USFA fold. No fencers will switch to epee over this point. However, I think that such a choice will seriously impact our international competitiveness as our top fencers can no longer use NACs, JOs and strong local events as practices for their international events with the same rules and tactics.

The summary of this is: If the rule does come, does the USFA have a choice in how to apply it? If we do adopt it, we risk decimating our non-competitive membership base, which in addition to financial contributions extends the visibility and footprint of fencing considerably across the country and helps bring in our future Olympians. If we do not adopt it, we run the risk of severely crippling our international performance. What do you think are the options available, and which is best?

[FoilyDeath]

FOR GODS SAKE....WHY?!
If it ain't broke, don't bloody fix it! Apart from making more money for mask manufacturers and forcing us to buy even more masks, what the hell is the point?!
On topic: if it gets adopted, we had best change to it quick. I remember when we swapped to new timing, and, at least in the UK, 90% of comps never got round to getting new boxes.
Edit: This is not going to change foil, at all. The bib doesn't open a new target: its covered by the current parries. It won't require anybody to change their technique, or for that matter help the sport in any way, except making more money for some people. Oh, and getting people, mainly beginners, hurt. If the FIE actually pass this, I will personally write them a long painful letter in multiple languages.

[Miglin]

Let's just hope it doesn't go through. I haven't got money for a new mask.

[OROD]

Is the FIE (or USFA, I dont care which) going to buy me two new masks (one for practice and one for competitions)? No, I dont think so.

So, if they're not going to buy me 2 new masks, they can go f*ck themselves! Or, actually, even if they are they can still go f*ck themselves if they pass this rule.

.

[bigdawg2121]

Originally Posted by FoilyDeath

Edit: This is not going to change foil, at all. The bib doesn't open a new target: its covered by the current parries. It won't require anybody to change their technique, or for that matter help the sport in any way, except making more money for some people. Oh, and getting people, mainly beginners, hurt. If the FIE actually pass this, I will personally write them a long painful letter in multiple languages.

Seconded. This isn't really going to change much. I'd say it potentially changes even less for foil than removing the back of the hand from target did for saber. It's just kind of annoying and expensive.

[darius]

How can the USFA not adopt the rule? If the international game changes, we must follow suit as quickly as possible. It will take time for everybody to catch up, but better that than hamstring our results -- eventually, those lower-level clubs will change anyway.

However, if the FIE is going to such great lengths to drastically modify foil, why not just make the entire mask target? I believe there's a classical precedent, plus there's existing equipment that could be used; those of us who occasionally use all 3 weapons would appreciate it. I can't imagine having a separate foil, epee, and sabre mask!

darius

[FoilyDeath]

I suggest we replace the foil by a bright, neon pink, rubber penis. It would make it a lot safer, as well as television friendly and safe, even if it had to catter to a more select audience.

Seriously, what in gods name are the FIE doing? First they screw up timings, and instead of fixing it, they go and break the sport even more.
LEAVE FOIL ALONE!

[CvilleFencer]

In theory I still like the idea... Also, with either the Italian or Brazilian proposals, depending on final interpretation of course, I think it would be fairly simple and not too expensive to modify current masks to accept the change, at least on a per individual basis. It will still cost a lot for schools/clubs. Course if it goes through I will be even happier to have my LP Exchange mask...

I really don't think it will make it through however. I think that many of the NGB's involved will look at the cost and not support it. At least I hope they do... In a perfect world sort of way I think bib should be target in foil, but in the really real world it is to much of a painful change for way to little real gain.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by FoilyDeath

First they screw up timings, and instead of fixing it, they go and break the sport even more.

And you dont think they'll stop there do you?

2008 - Bib becomes target area
2009 - Get rid of off-target light
2010 - Weapon arm is now target area
2011 - ALL of mask is target
2012 - New new timings! (Finally getting rid of all those pesky flicks... and those pesky direct hits as well)
2013 - Non-weapon arm is now also target
2014 - Do to continued drop in fencings popularity, fencing is streamlined down to 2 weapons... Foilepee and SaberX! (the 'X' makes it sound cool)

Originally Posted by FoilyDeath

LEAVE FOIL ALONE!

Why on Earth would they do that?

.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by darius

How can the USFA not adopt the rule? If the international game changes, we must follow suit as quickly as possible. It will take time for everybody to catch up, but better that than hamstring our results -- eventually, those lower-level clubs will change anyway.

However, if the FIE is going to such great lengths to drastically modify foil, why not just make the entire mask target? I believe there's a classical precedent, plus there's existing equipment that could be used; those of us who occasionally use all 3 weapons would appreciate it. I can't imagine having a separate foil, epee, and sabre mask!

darius

Actually, even if you used a sabre mask for foil, you;d still need an insulated mask for epee...if you land a shot on the lame and teh body of the barrel of blade is touching the lame material, the shot will ground out (tried it myself after reading about it on a thread about a year ago...)...and it didn;t matter if the mask was connected to anything. in fact, on the test I saw the sabre mask was unconnected to anything else.

[KD5MDK]

I think darius was referring to only wanting 2 masks (epee and sabre/foil) rather than 1.

[mrbiggs]

They put the new timings into effect immediately after the Olympics IIRC, and the USFA followed suit after a fairly short period of time.

Why would this change be any different? (Especially considering that if it's only half the bib, I don't think it will make a huge difference in the way foil is fenced like the new timings did).

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

They put the new timings into effect immediately after the Olympics IIRC, and the USFA followed suit after a fairly short period of time.

Why would this change be any different? (Especially considering that if it's only half the bib, I don't think it will make a huge difference in the way foil is fenced like the new timings did).

My guess....the anticipated expense of requiring competitors to get new masks -- or conversion kits -- might be deemed too high...much the same reason FIE kit is not required at USFA events.

The timing changes affected all foil and sabre fencers, but the cost was only born by those who had boxes...maybe 1000 clubs and individuals total (guessing here)....much different than multiple thousands of fencers who would need new masks...

[Grasshopper]

Foil was created to teach people how to stay alive in a real swordfight. To hit without being hit. You had to hit your opponent in the torso because that is the only part of the body where you could strike a fatal wound. My understanding is that the head was not a valid target because they DIDN'T USE MASKS back then, not because you couldn't kill someone by stabbing them in the head. Since we DO use masks now, why isn't the whole head part of the target area already?

[edew]

Originally Posted by FoilyDeath

I suggest we replace the foil by a bright, neon pink, rubber penis. It would make it a lot safer, as well as television friendly and safe, even if it had to catter to a more select audience.

Seriously, what in gods name are the FIE doing? First they screw up timings, and instead of fixing it, they go and break the sport even more.
LEAVE FOIL ALONE!

I'm watching the 2007 WC foil DVDs. Foil's way broken. Fencers are learning and executing attack-remises because the opponent often have to hurry the riposte and thus might actually not get a good clean hit. And there's way too much mouseying around with dweebish prodding actions. Few fencers dare to make a strong attack, for fear of a close-out that, even if the attack hits, might cause the attacking hit to bounce off.

[Miglin]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Foil was created to teach people how to stay alive in a real swordfight. To hit without being hit. You had to hit your opponent in the torso because that is the only part of the body where you could strike a fatal wound. My understanding is that the head was not a valid target because they DIDN'T USE MASKS back then, not because you couldn't kill someone by stabbing them in the head. Since we DO use masks now, why isn't the whole head part of the target area already?

'Cuz.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Foil was created to teach people how to stay alive in a real swordfight. To hit without being hit. You had to hit your opponent in the torso because that is the only part of the body where you could strike a fatal wound. My understanding is that the head was not a valid target because they DIDN'T USE MASKS back then, not because you couldn't kill someone by stabbing them in the head. Since we DO use masks now, why isn't the whole head part of the target area already?

As I remember, the FIE experimented with sabre masks when they changed to the new timings, and did the same experiments during the trials that led them to these modifications.

Basically, you can't get a foil point to consistently stick on a sabre mask, so they figured it wouldn't make sense. With my experiences with people covering target, I have to agree: even if I clearly hit someone on the mask, odds are good that I will get no light at all if it's at any sort of angle with significant velocity.

[fatfencer]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

In theory I still like the idea... Also, with either the Italian or Brazilian proposals, depending on final interpretation of course, I think it would be fairly simple and not too expensive to modify current masks to accept the change, at least on a per individual basis. It will still cost a lot for schools/clubs. Course if it goes through I will be even happier to have my LP Exchange mask...

I really don't think it will make it through however. I think that many of the NGB's involved will look at the cost and not support it. At least I hope they do... In a perfect world sort of way I think bib should be target in foil, but in the really real world it is to much of a painful change for way to little real gain.

See the above in bold. I 'bolded' it.
STOOPID. With two O's
Oooh I can't WAIT to tell everyone AGAIN that I have an LP mask. OOOOHHH.

Bib legal=gay as day is long.

FF

PS: what the hell is shen kinjitsu??