Division funding - club's responsibility?

[sir alasdair]

How do the clubs typically support the division financially? Do they divide profits from tournaments held, do they pay a standard flat rate per month/quarter/year? Who has the power to decide what the clubs in the division are required to pay to remain "official" and what action can be taken?

[SJCFU#2]

It varies by division.

As I recall each division receives a certain amount from the USFA, generally tied to their membership. In some cases this is the division's only source of revenue - host clubs pay any expenses associated with running tournaments (including supplying equipment) and get to keep any proceeds (at which point I could see the division sometimes needing to charge member clubs for any additional income). In other cases the Division provides everything and keeps all the proceeds (sometimes paying a rental fee to the host club). Most fall somewhere in between these two extremes, with the expenses and proceeds being split between the host club and division.

As far as who makes those decisions, usually that's left to the executive committee of the division. And since the executive committee members are elected by the members of the division they supposedly represent the members of the division (although there are sometimes disagreements regarding how well they represent the membership, at which point things can get rather ugly).

[Chris]

Originally Posted by sir alasdair

How do the clubs typically support the division financially? Do they divide profits from tournaments held, do they pay a standard flat rate per month/quarter/year? Who has the power to decide what the clubs in the division are required to pay to remain "official" and what action can be taken?

I am afraid you ARE a little confused.
Clubs don't really 'support' the Division in any direct financial way.

Divsions receive a percentage (I beleive it's 30%, but don't hold me to that...) of the USFA annual dues for each USFA member in their Division. (IF a Minnesota person comes to Wisconsin Tournament, and pays their dues there, Minnesota gets that percentage.

Most divisions have some committees where are represented. This will vary in purpose and function...
If clubs want to be 'official' THey need the pay dues to the USFA AS A CLUB, THe division doesn't really decide on this...I suppose they can let someone from a non-member club attend such meetings for discussion, but they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Wisconsin Division jsut changed their policy on tournaments to encourage clubs to get more people involved. Most non-qualifiers will be run by clubs; they must get the division to officially sanction the events, or the USFA will not accept the results.

I have no idea what the revenue sharing arrangements might be; if they are using Division equipment, the division should get some amount of money of the proceeds; if the club uses all their own gear, not so much...

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Chris

Divsions receive a percentage (I beleive it's 30%, but don't hold me to that...) of the USFA annual dues for each USFA member in their Division.

Divisions get $3/year/member, sections get $1/year/member as a "dues rebate".

Divisions also get a cut from new lifetime memberships (25%?). Presumably from sustaining-lifetime also, although I'd have to research it to make sure of that.

-B

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by sir alasdair

How do the clubs typically support the division financially? Do they divide profits from tournaments held, do they pay a standard flat rate per month/quarter/year? Who has the power to decide what the clubs in the division are required to pay to remain "official" and what action can be taken?

Hi Kirk,
Brad's right about the money. The division gets $3.00 and the section gets $1.00 per member from the USFA national office.

As for the Wisconsin division, "official" tournaments and club support, here's the scoop:

The Wisconsin division does not require a "sanctioning fee," as your post implies. We're not demanding money from clubs who want to host tournaments as payment for making that tournament official. Getting a tournament sanctioned by the division is really just a matter of turning in a schedule in a timely manner. The division then looks at the dates, and as long as there’s no interference with the required division events, JO qualifiers for example, the competitions are approved.

Regarding the money, the Wisconsin division, at our September 2007 meeting, voted unanimously to collect $1.00 per entry from USFA competitions in the state. Instead of trying to figure out a percentage, we decided on the $1.00 amount. The executive committee made this decision.

The real question, for me at least is this, “What’s the division going to do with this money?” Well, the executive committee met again on 11-18-07 and talked about exactly that. Here are the ideas we came up with:

1. Create a travel grant for division fencers who want to go to JOs.
2. Repair several pieces of equipment in the division armory.
3. Eliminate the entry fee for the division championships.

Kirk, how would you spend division funds? What do you think about the above ideas? I’m not trying to be facetious. I really want to hear your thoughts.

Finally, don’t ever, even for one second, hesitate to contact me directly with any division question, concern, comment or suggestion. You can always reach me at mgar919@gmail.com. Shoot me an e-mail any time. Include your phone number and I’ll call you back.

Thanks for your post,

Mike

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Garrison

1. Create a travel grant for division fencers who want to go to JOs.

That's a real good way to remove that pesky NCAA eligibility that keeps luring some of the best young fencers out of state....

-B

[oiuyt]

Now, to be helpful, rather than merely slightly snarky (it does happen on occasion!)...

4) Subsidize a referee clinic
5) Subsidize a coaching clinic
6) Subsidize a general fencing-parents clinic
7) Establish a program to help new start-up programs (equipment grants or loans, etc.)
8) Trip to the Bahamas for Division Chair
9) Prize-based incentives for club/division growth
10) Acquire additional division-owned tournament equipment

-B

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

That's a real good way to remove that pesky NCAA eligibility that keeps luring some of the best young fencers out of state....

-B

Thanks Brad,
We can always count on you, your training and years of experience to see a potential problem and offer helpful and constructive advice.

Oh, wait, that's just the opposite of what you did.

Sorry, my mistake.

Mike

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Thanks Brad,
We can always count on you, your training and years of experience to see a potential problem and offer helpful and constructive advice.

Oh, wait, that's just the opposite of what you did.

Sorry, my mistake.

Mike

Double sorry,
I can always count on me to write a snide response five minutes too soon.

My mistake.

Mike

[seak]

Brad would travel reimbursements for JO's also violate NCAA eligibility (for high school fencers)?

[keith]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

That's a real good way to remove that pesky NCAA eligibility that keeps luring some of the best young fencers out of state....

-B

On the other hand why should they pretend to prepare junior fencers for NCAA programs?

It isn't where the majority end up after all.

[oiuyt]

2007-2008 NCAA Division I Manual

Select quotes:

Originally Posted by NCAA D1 Manual

12.1.2 Amateur Status. An individual loses amateur status and thus shall not be eligible for intercollegiate competition in a particular sport if the individual:
(a) Uses his or her athletics skill (directly or indirectly) for pay in any form in that sport; (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02)

12.1.2.1 Prohibited Forms of Pay. “Pay,” as used in Bylaw 12.1.2 above, includes, but is not limited to, the following:

12.1.2.1.4.1 Cash or Equivalent Award. Cash, or the equivalent thereof (e.g., trust fund), as an award for participation in competition at any time, even if such an award is permitted under the rules governing an amateur, noncollegiate event in which the individual is participating. An award or a cash prize that an individual could not receive under NCAA legislation may not be forwarded in the individual’s name to a different individual or agency. (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02)
12.1.2.1.4.1.1 Exception—Prospective Student-Athlete’s Educational Institution.
{SNIP}
12.1.2.1.4.1.2 Operation Gold Grant

12.1.2.1.4.3 Expenses from Outside Team or Organization. Expenses received from an outside amateur sports team or organization in excess of actual and necessary travel, room and board expenses, and apparel and equipment (for individual and team use only from teams or organizations not affiliated with member institutions, including local sports clubs as set forth in Bylaw 13.11.2.3) for competition and practice held in preparation for such competition. Practice must be conducted in a continuous time period preceding the competition except for practice sessions conducted by a national team, which occasionally may be interrupted for specific periods of time preceding the competition.
(Revised: 1/10/90, 1/10/92)

12.1.2.1.4.5 Expenses from Sponsor Other Than Parents/Legal Guardians or Nonprofessional Sponsor of Event. Actual and necessary expenses or any other form of compensation to participate in athletics competition (while not representing an educational institution) from a sponsor other than an individual upon whom the athlete is naturally or legally dependent or the nonprofessional organization that is sponsoring the competition.

12.1.2.1.6 Preferential Treatment, Benefits or Services. Preferential treatment, benefits or services because of the individual’s athletics reputation or skill or pay-back potential as a professional athlete, unless such treatment, benefits or services are specifically permitted under NCAA legislation. (Revised: 1/11/94)

12.1.2.4 Exceptions to Amateurism Rule.
12.1.2.4.1 Exception for Prize Money Prior to Full-Time Collegiate Enrollment. Prior to collegiate enrollment, an individual may accept prize money based on his or her place finish or performance in an open athletics event (an event that is not invitation only). Such prize money may not exceed actual and necessary expenses and may be provided only by the sponsor of the open event. The calculation of actual and necessary expenses shall not include the expenses or fees of anyone other than the prospective student-athlete (e.g., coach’s fees or expenses, parent’s expenses). (Adopted: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02, Revised: 12/12/06 applicable to any expenses received by a prospective student-athlete on or after 8/23/06)

There are a number of additional exceptions mostly targetted at monies for those in specific programs towards Olympic training and for money that is funnelled through the USOC or sport's NGB (and, no, a local division doesn't qualify).

12.1.2.1.4.3 seems to allow for actual and necessary expenses to be paid by the sponsoring organization. In the case of JO's this would be the USFA (nationally). It appears that divisions or clubs could assist with expenses towards local competitions that they sponsor, although I would absolutely suggest confirming that with the NCAA or a compliance officer prior to acting upon that assumption.

12.1.2.1.4.5 clearly disallows sponsorship from a (non-parent) person/organization other than the sponsor of the event.

Note that 12.1.2.4.1 DOES allow for a limited amount of prize money for pre-enrollment athletes. Note that the expenses involved can ONLY be the direct expenses for the event in which the prize is won. In other interpretation documents it was explicitly made clear that the prize cannot include general expenses, expenses for other events, and that an athlete cannot just total up expenses and prizes over a time-period (say for a season) and cancel them out against each other.

While we're on the topic, gift certificates, a favorite among tournament organizers, are considered cash equivalents and (except for the 12.1.2.4.1 exception) can easily trip amateurism issues.

The NCAA has been getting significantly more concerned with amateurism over the past couple of seasons. As of this past year there's a separate amateurism questionaire that's part of the NCAA clearinghouse process for new prospective student-athletes (previously it had basically just looked at academic eligibility).

edit: Oh, and all of the normal qualifiers that I normally include with such posts about not being a compliance officer. They disagree with each other enough (school to school) on many matters that would seem obvious that I wouldn't want to claim that less obvious questions have a single, clear, answer. If anything in the NCAA regulations might affect your eligibility it's in your own self-interest to get it clarified by professionals.

-B

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by keith

On the other hand why should they pretend to prepare junior fencers for NCAA programs?

It isn't where the majority end up after all.

There's a difference between preparing them for NCAA programs and making it impossible for them to go.

Personally I think it would be a very good idea for a parents clinic to include information about collegiate fencing, both NCAA and club-level. Or, for that matter, holding a clinic aimed at HS-age fencers with that information (among other things).

Note that at least several collegiate conferences which involve club programs have provisions that try to specify that all participating athletes must comply with NCAA regulations (never mind that many of those regulations require submission of paperwork that non-NCAA athletes don't have access to). Such rules frequently could be interpreted to include the amateurism standards.

-B

[oso97]

Originally Posted by NCAA D1 Manual
12.1.2 Amateur Status. An individual loses amateur status and thus shall not be eligible for intercollegiate competition in a particular sport if the individual:
(a) Uses his or her athletics skill (directly or indirectly) for pay in any form in that sport; (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02)

This seems to suggest that a high school or college student who referees for pay would be ineligible (better make sure the FOC is aware of that and doesn't give out a rating to anyone who might be NCAA eligible). As does one who teaches at a summer camp. Or teaches a beginner class at her local club.

Yea, I always knew the NCAA was a *****, ****, ****, **** institution full of ***, ***, ******, and **** types of individuals. This confirms that it is also a **** and **** one. And I'm so incredibly tired of the USFA bending over to their incredibly ***** rules.

[keith]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

There's a difference between preparing them for NCAA programs and making it impossible for them to go.

It might be a naive assumption but junior fencing is probably going to grow faster than NCAA fencing programs. So, yes, it is pretending to most of them.

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Personally I think it would be a very good idea for a parents clinic to include information about collegiate fencing, both NCAA and club-level. Or, for that matter, holding a clinic aimed at HS-age fencers with that information (among other things).

.... and for those who (or whose parents) wish to maintain their modesty they can decline any awards that might breach the rules.

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Note that at least several collegiate conferences which involve club programs have provisions that try to specify that all participating athletes must comply with NCAA regulations (never mind that many of those regulations require submission of paperwork that non-NCAA athletes don't have access to). Such rules frequently could be interpreted to include the amateurism standards.

Talk about the tail wagging the dog.

How about;

The NCAA is to the USFA as the Olympics is to the FIE?

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by oso97

Originally Posted by NCAA D1 Manual
12.1.2 Amateur Status. An individual loses amateur status and thus shall not be eligible for intercollegiate competition in a particular sport if the individual:
(a) Uses his or her athletics skill (directly or indirectly) for pay in any form in that sport; (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02)

This seems to suggest that a high school or college student who referees for pay would be ineligible (better make sure the FOC is aware of that and doesn't give out a rating to anyone who might be NCAA eligible). As does one who teaches at a summer camp. Or teaches a beginner class at her local club.

Depends on one's definition of "athletics skill", when including the "indirectly" portion.

I would STRONGLY argue that refereeing is a distinct skill from fencing. I would similarly, although less strenuously, argue that fencing instruction/coaching is a distinct skill. Student-athlete employment at camps is specifically dealt with (see citations below). Historically, paid coaching has frequently been considered a professional activity for athletes, including in fencing (I don't have any information regarding the NCAA's stance on this sub-topic).

Relevant quotes:

Originally Posted by 2007-2008 NCAA Division I Manual

12.4.3 Camp/Clinic Employment, General Rule. A student-athlete may be employed by his or her institution, by another institution, or by a private organization to work in a camp or clinic as a counselor, unless otherwise restricted by NCAA legislation (see Bylaw 13.12 for regulations relating to camps and clinics). Out-of-season playing and practice limitations may restrict the number of players from the same institution who may be employed in that institution’s camp (see the specific sport in Bylaw 17 for these employment restrictions and Bylaw 13.12).

13.12.1.5 Employment of Prospective Student-Athletes/No Free or Reduced Admission Privileges.
13.12.1.5.1 General Rule. An institution, members of its staff or representatives of its athletics interests shall not employ or give free or reduced admission privileges to a high school, preparatory school or two-year college athletics award winner or any individual being recruited by the institution per Bylaw 13.02.12.1. For purposes of this rule, a high school includes the ninth-grade level, regardless of whether the ninth grade is part of a junior high school system. (Revised: 3/10/04)

13.12.2 Employment at Camp or Clinic.
13.12.2.1 Student-Athletes. A student-athlete who is employed in any sports camp or clinic must meet the following requirements:
(a) The student-athlete must perform duties that are of a general supervisory character in addition to any coaching or officiating assignments. (Revised: 4/28/05)
(b) Compensation provided to the student-athlete shall be commensurate with the going rate for camp or clinic counselors of like teaching ability and camp or clinic experience and may not be paid on the basis of the value that the student-athlete may have for the employer because of the athletics reputation or fame the student-athlete has achieved. It is not permissible to establish varying levels of compensation for a student-athlete employed in a sports camp or clinic based on the level of athletics skills of the student-athlete. (Revised: 1/11/94)
(c) A student-athlete who only lectures or demonstrates at a camp/clinic may not receive compensation for his or her appearance at the camp/clinic. (Adopted: 1/11/94)

17.9.8 Camps and Clinics. There are no limits on the number of student-athletes in fencing who may be employed (e.g., as counselors) in camps or clinics (see Bylaw 13.12). Currently enrolled student-athletes may not participate as campers in their institution’s camps or clinics. (Revised: 1/10/92)

-B

[oiuyt]

While I'm posting, note that all of the above citations are from the Division I Manual. Division II and Division III each have their own sets of regulations and they absolutely differ (from both Div I and each other), frequently in non-obvious ways. There are things that are permissible in D3 that are verboten in D1. There are things that are allowed in D2 but not in either D1 or D3.

I'm (for what I trust are obvious reasons) considerably more cognizant of the D1 regulations.

-B