Could use some coaching help

[HawkDriver]

Hi everyone, here's a quick rundown of the predicament I'm in. I fenced for five years, mainly sabre but with some foil, and taught beginners for their first 3 or 4 months of fencing before passing them off to our coach. After that, I joined the army and haven't touched a blade since 2003. Fast forward to today, I find myself in Kandahar with my gear and a class of four absolute beginners and teaching them foil.

Obviously I'm not the best one to teach, being rusty myself, but I forgot how much fun it was! Not to mention, there's not exactly a plethora of coaches in Kandahar, so I'm pretty much it. It's coming back relatively quick and I've progressed them slightly farther than I've done with previous beginner classes, but now I'm finding I could use some help. I've never taught at the intermediate level so I'm kind of fishing on what techniques or drills to go over.

Main problems I'm seeing that I could use some help for ideas on how to fix:
-Footwork is fine in drills, gets sloppy in bouts. One in particular likes to sidestep way too much. Lunges are excellent in drills, but when bouting I've seen a few forego lunges and start lifting/sliding the back leg and just lean forward on a planted front foot. How can I break these habits?
-I taught the feint-disengage, but the feint is starting to fall by the wayside and they start using disengages as a primary attack (or 4 or 5 disengages on a single attack)
-"Windshield wiper" parries. They've been common in every beginner class I've taught and the habit usually breaks with time, but any new techniques or parry-riposte drills would be nice. I've done most of the ones on the drills section of the site, but tip control is proving difficult to ingrain.

I know this is asking a lot, so in the interests of berevity maybe someone has a good link to a coaching manual or a book I could look up? I would like to keep coaching them for the remaining few months we're here and avoid giving too many bad habits, just until I can get them back to a club with a "real" coach!

[Tripod]

Saber slapping a burka is one of the swwwwwwwweeeeeeeeeeetest sounds in the world.

Makes a nice .................. WHumping................. sort of sound.

[erooMynohtnA]

http://home.earthlink.net/~allenevans59/

I really like Allen Evans' website, but it doesn't really deal with basic technical issues. However, he frequents this forum, and I think he gives excellent advice. Maybe he'll be around this thread some time to throw some down.

First off, how long have these guys been fencing? Can you give an estimate in hours of the amount of drill time, lesson time, and bouting time they've had? That would help diagnose the problems as they're just too new, there's not enough drilling, they've started bouting too early, there haven't been enough lessons, or whatever else jumps out.

What I think is happening: They've started bouting too early and too much, and the problem is exacerbated by fencing other beginners.

Why: Once a beginner starts bouting, they're thinking tactically instead of technically, so technique goes out the window. Against a superior opponent, that's not a problem, because poor technique will be punished with a touch. Against another beginner, it becomes a contest of speed, because neither of them are technically focused. The faster an action is, the more likely it is to score, so they try to move faster and faster, while becoming less technically sound every time. It's a vicious cycle.

The solution: Drill more, drill slower, fencer slower, and give lessons with a slow to fast tempo change, only speeding up at the last moment before the touch.

I know that's less fun for them, and you want to maintain their interest, but the reality of fencing is that there's a lot of hard work involved in getting better. It's fun to just suit up and go at it, but it's not going to make you any better.

Generic point control advice: I imagine they're using French grips. Are they holding them correctly? You mentioned you were a saber fencer, so I'm fearful they're holding them like a saber. That will hurt point control. Furthermore, don't teach any flicking, if you are. Get them to fix the tip on the target to get a touch.

Even more generic point control advice: Make sure their parries aren't taking their points very far out of line. You want the smallest action possible, and to end up with the tip still pointed at the opponent. If you make a swinging parry, you're much less likely to hit on the riposte. Do some parry drills, both choreographed and unchoreographed. Choreographed to get the motion and feel of the parry down, and unchoreographed after that to know when to use it.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by HawkDriver

Main problems I'm seeing that I could use some help for ideas on how to fix:
-Footwork is fine in drills, gets sloppy in bouts. One in particular likes to sidestep way too much. Lunges are excellent in drills, but when bouting I've seen a few forego lunges and start lifting/sliding the back leg and just lean forward on a planted front foot. How can I break these habits?
-I taught the feint-disengage, but the feint is starting to fall by the wayside and they start using disengages as a primary attack (or 4 or 5 disengages on a single attack)
-"Windshield wiper" parries. They've been common in every beginner class I've taught and the habit usually breaks with time, but any new techniques or parry-riposte drills would be nice. I've done most of the ones on the drills section of the site, but tip control is proving difficult to ingrain.

Always happy to help someone at the ends of the earth....

The coaching website I run doesn't address fencers at this level that much (something that *I* probably need to address) and I would agree with the diagnosis that they are probably fencing a little too early, and are now concentrating on hitting rather than fencing. Normal reaction.

For lunging and footwork, make them do some drills with each other without weapons, with the idea of escaping attacks and retaking the ground. For instance: A makes ONLY advance lunge. B escapes with any number of retreats, but is only allowed to make advance lunge back. The goal is to be able to slap or touch the opponent's hand while in on guard. You can play this with gloves as well....this should be a familiar game to you, a saber fencer. Add additional footwork, such as scoring with an advance, advance lunge.

This same drill can be done with blades.

From this, move to more tactical drills with an obvious set up: fencer A advances and lunges. Fencer B parries with a small retreat, and then ripostes with a lunge. In the next phase, Fencer A recovers as Fencer B ripostes with the lunge, and parries and ripostes as well. Emphasize slow and perfect execution of the footwork. Add other actions (another riposte, a disengage, more footwork) as they get better. Try to use tactical issues that they are encountering when they bout.

For the disengaging attackers. I would bet that what's happening is that the attackers are simply waving the blades UNDER the guards of the defenders as they come forward. If you haven't already, teach the defenders a low line parry -- 8 or 7 -- if the attacker is mindlessly waving his or her blade underneath, a low line parry is going to catch it EVERY time, and the riposte will catch them.

Sloppy parries and bladework in general: make them "fence" in slow motion, as if they were moving through thick oil. Limit their footwork during this to advances and retreats. The attacks have to be slow, and the parries have to be done at the last minute to find the blade. This might enable them to self correct, and give you a chance to give good feedback. Emphasize that this drill is designed to teach manuevering skills and positioning skills. This is not a drill designed to hit, but show how hits can be set up and avoided. Your students should understand that.

Part of learning to fence is simple sweat: learning the skills through disciplined repetition and self-correction. Your guys and girls should understand THAT too. :-)

Allen Evans

[HawkDriver]

First off, thanks for the help!
In answer to some questions, here's what we've done.
We started in August- none had ever fenced before. Partly because it's how I've always taught beginners and partly because they had to order equipment (and my wife had to find mine and mail it), but we did the whole month of August without equipment. Twice a week for two hours was footwork and footwork drills.
In September our equipment showed up and we've moved to three times a week for about an hour and a half. We started with footwork with weapons and I taught attacks in different lines, the extension, the lunge, the advance-lunge, basically rehashing the footwork but now holding weapons. We included some point control drills as well. The second half of September was all parries- I taught 4/6 and their ripostes, then a week later 7/8 and ripostes.

Early October (and this is probably my mistake), we continued drills and started slow bouts with me discussing everything that happened after hits. I introduced the feint-disengage in the high lines the first week, and counter parries 4 and 6 the second week, all the while trying (with limited success) to keep that tip control nice and tight.

Since then we've been going over select lessons basically by what I saw wrong the previous practice. We've done some limited second intention drills, but after reading your posts I probably am progressing them too fast to be effective. I guess that's what happens when I enthusiastically charge into uncharted waters!

I'm definitely going to try slowing it down after reading these posts. We've done some of the drills Allen mentioned, and he hit the nail on the head with his guess- they pretty much are just waving their weapons back and forth. I keep trying to impress the fact to keep it clean and simple, but until I suck it up and slow them down it's probably not going to happen.

Thankfully the beginners I did teach way back when were all foil beginners- so at least I can pull the "do as I say, not as I do" line out since I at least know what it SHOULD look like, even if I personnaly have my own flicking habit to break!

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by HawkDriver

[...] we did the whole month of August without equipment. Twice a week for two hours was footwork and footwork drills.
In September our equipment showed up and we've moved to three times a week for about an hour and a half. [...] Early October (and this is probably my mistake), we continued drills and started slow bouts with me discussing everything that happened after hits. I introduced the feint-disengage in the high lines the first week, and counter parries 4 and 6 the second week, all the while trying (with limited success) to keep that tip control nice and tight.

Since then we've been going over select lessons basically by what I saw wrong the previous practice. We've done some limited second intention drills, but after reading your posts I probably am progressing them too fast to be effective.
[...]
I'm definitely going to try slowing it down after reading these posts.

It doesn't sound to me like you've been moving too fast. Not having seen your students, I can't see whether their technique, as executed in drill, is good or bad, but you seem to think it's been decent. In my experience, it's perfectly natural for technique to suffer as soon as students begin bouting. I don't take that as arguing that students shouldn't bout. My students start bouting, in limited ways, as soon as they have learned the most basic technique.

As long as you keep drilling them on basic technique, point out where poor technique in bouting costs them touches, and praise competitive actions scored with good technique, I say let them fence, and teach them the tactics that are appropriate to the technique they've learned. If they pick up bad habits, point them out and do drills to correct them. If they discover a good move but can't execute it well, show them the right way to execute it. If they start relying on moves that won't work on better fencers, show them what's wrong with what their doing, show everyone how to deal with it, and move on.

Some people do advocate not allowing fencers to bout until they've been so drilled in technique that their technique in bouting is as perfect as their technique in drilling. I see no reason for that, though. Along with technique, fencers need to learn tactics & strategy, distance control, timing, and how to manipulate their opponent and not be manipulated themselves; all things that can only really be honed in competitive situations. Initially, students who focus on drilling alone will probably have better technique than students who drill and bout, but over time, they'll arrive at the same point -- and the students who drill and bout will have a lot more fun.

[jBirch]

I don't think there's an easy answer to your questions...

First, the problem isn't always in you the coach. It's often in your students too. If they're not interested in the technical then obviously the technical isn't going to be very good. You can work on it, but you're fighting an uphill battle.

Secondly, bouting is why many people get into fencing in the first place. There is a school of teaching that uses the "why does this method fail" technique: a student bouts, then the lesson is formed around improving the things that didn't work in the bout. Usually though, this doesn't work, because the beginner needs a much higher level of mastery before the technique starts to really show through. You've found what happens using this theory.

You can train your fencers to be better by promoting a routine of practice in the club. Free fencing is something done outside of lesson time. During the lesson, you teach the technique as correctly as you can. Each lesson consists of an instructional period and a practice period, where the students are drilling and refining their technique. Ideally, fencers get better because they're practicing the right things and suddenly, they start winning more.

But the weakness here is motivation and commitment...

If the student is not motivated and hasn't become "coachable" then nothing you do is going to matter. The fencer simply wants to play and you can only get so much better playing before you hit a technical wall that requires work.

By the way, how old are they? Are you teaching military guys or local kids?