10-31-2007, 05:27 PM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New Hamphire
Posts: 391
| Science project.
Not sure if anyone can help, but you all seem at least MILDLY intelligent. 
As part of a science project about antimatter I am building a replica particle accelerator. Granted this will not actually accelerate particles or create antimatter, it is just a representation of the process.
I have the actual accelerator built (Circular with opposing electro magnets for all who care). However I have come at a standstill for a vacuum chamber. I have had a few ideas but none of them seem very good.
Thus, I come to you for help. Anyone have any ideas for a cheap yet effective vacuum chamber? Needs to be about 2' by 2' and go to about to 15" mercury. | 
|  | | And now for this message... |
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10-31-2007, 09:54 PM
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#2 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Live in Maine...Fence in New Hampshire
Posts: 1,096
| I think I have a spare particle accelerator in my fencing toolkit. Would you like to just borrow mine? | |
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10-31-2007, 09:58 PM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005 Location: Over there -->
Posts: 3,869
| Quote:
Originally Posted by App13  Not sure if anyone can help, but you all seem at least MILDLY intelligent. | Quote:
Originally Posted by Beloit Fencer of Old I think I have a spare particle accelerator in my fencing toolkit. Would you like to just borrow mine? | 
Just thought I'd point that out. | |
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11-01-2007, 12:15 AM
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#4 | | Boom!
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada
Posts: 5,909
| You could always try heating the air in the box, then sealing it and letting it cool (or, even better, actively cooling it with ice or dry ice). PV=nRT, but I don't know if you'd be able to get enough of a pressure difference without requiring insane amounts of heat (or cold for that matter). I'm too tired to figure out what 15" of mercury actually converts to to see if it would work...
Good luck!
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11-01-2007, 01:42 AM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,022
| 15 inches of mercury is about 1/2 of standard atmospheric pressure at sea level.
(In other words, 15" Hg = 50.8 kPa = 7.4 psi)
Something cylindrical would be your best bet (speherical is better, but good luck finding something), although you might want to reinforce it.
One way to test a structure to see if it will hold the pressure differential is to let it fill with air at normal pressure (~ 100 kPa), and submerge it in water until you get an equivalent pressure difference. In this case, you're looking for about 150 kPa, since the difference is roughly 50 kPa (or should I saying that 1/2 pressure equates to double pressure, and go to 200kPa? Anybody else know?).
At any rate, a depth of 14.8 meters will get you 150 psi. Since pressure is a linear thing, 29.6 meters will get you 200 psi.
umm... I wouldn't try this by holding my breath if i were you...
Maybe you could check the suction on a vacuum cleaner and use that?
At any rate, even a small amount of vacuum in the chamber will decrease the depth you'd need to test at.
As for building material, I'm having trouble coming up with anything simple that would take the pressure. I initially considered sida pop bottles, but they won't take anything near what you need. Although maybe joined 2 together and lined the insides with something ridid, and ran in some cross-bracing...
Unless, of course, you're looking for something a little more profesional than a pop-bottle chamber.
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Last edited by Rabid Monk; 11-01-2007 at 11:05 AM.
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11-01-2007, 01:46 AM
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#6 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
Posts: 8,617
| I'm not sure I understand.
If it's just a non-working model then why does it matter if you ACTUALLY get a vacuum (or anything even halfway there)?
It's not like the accellerating portions are functional either.
-B
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11-01-2007, 02:40 AM
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#7 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Athos FC ~)---------- San Francisco, CA
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by oiuyt I'm not sure I understand. | Yeah, I dont understand either. Can you clarify what you're trying to accomplish? Also, what do you mean by "Circular with opposing electro magnets"?
What class/grade is this a project for? If I were you instead of going for a non-working model of an accelerator I'd go for a working model of something less ambitious, like a rail-gun or something like that. I mean, it's always much cooler to have something that actually works, even if it's only on a small scale to show the concept.
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11-01-2007, 04:12 AM
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#8 | | Épéeist Hive Queen
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by oiuyt I'm not sure I understand. | And I'm sure I don't understand.  
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11-01-2007, 09:25 AM
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#9 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Buffalo, NY
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by App13 Anyone have any ideas for a cheap yet effective vacuum chamber? | How about the inside of Neinteen's head?
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11-01-2007, 10:18 AM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 1,638
| Have you tried running a google search? For example, for "homemade 'vacuum chamber'"?
Running that search gets me (from a quick look): DIY Vacuum Chamber Cheap Alternative Vacuum Chambers Discussion
Link to a Journal article (first page only) Inexpensive Home-Made Vacuum Chamber
There are several others (apparently resin modelers use them).
Good luck with your project, though I also wonder what the point of using a functional vacuum chamber is for a scale model--you could probably do more interesting things by actually using the vacuum chamber (see the first link, for example).
--Philistine | |
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11-01-2007, 11:04 AM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,022
| Quote:
Originally Posted by OROD What class/grade is this a project for? If I were you instead of going for a non-working model of an accelerator I'd go for a working model of something less ambitious, like a rail-gun or something like that. I mean, it's always much cooler to have something that actually works, even if it's only on a small scale to show the concept.
. | True. And a working rail gun would be cool.
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11-01-2007, 11:36 AM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Michigan
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| What ever happened to the painted styrofoam ball solar system?
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11-01-2007, 12:50 PM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: West Coast
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Originally Posted by Rabid Monk True. And a working rail gun would be cool. | Better yet, use Philistine's link to the high voltage plasma tube, and make a working plasma rifle....just like the one in Doom. I loved that rifle. ::sniff::
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11-01-2007, 12:54 PM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Dere middle of Vermont
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by matt9476 How about the inside of Neinteen's head? | 
.....
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11-01-2007, 03:06 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New Hamphire
Posts: 391
| Quote:
Originally Posted by oiuyt I'm not sure I understand.
If it's just a non-working model then why does it matter if you ACTUALLY get a vacuum (or anything even halfway there)?
It's not like the accellerating portions are functional either.
-B | I need to have an actual vacuum to cool down the electro magnets properly. Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid Monk Maybe you could check the suction on a vacuum cleaner and use that? | 5" at most Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatReallyHurt You could always try heating the air in the box, then sealing it and letting it cool (or, even better, actively cooling it with ice or dry ice). PV=nRT, but I don't know if you'd be able to get enough of a pressure difference without requiring insane amounts of heat (or cold for that matter). I'm too tired to figure out what 15" of mercury actually converts to to see if it would work...
Good luck! | Thats actually a really good idea, but the amount of cooling would be horrid. Quote:
Originally Posted by OROD Yeah, I dont understand either. Can you clarify what you're trying to accomplish? Also, what do you mean by "Circular with opposing electro magnets"?
. | 10 electromagnets facing each other. North sides in. This is exactly what the CERN accelerator does except the entire tube is made up of these. Think of stacking them up, then putting that on its side. I have a small metal ball in the middle to signify a hydrogen atom and the difficulty they have evening it out.
For anyone confused, the vacuum is just to cool the electromagnets and help even out the metal ball.
Not to mention a vacuum chamber provides hours of fun.
Pic of the chamber: http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6753/96561751hg8.png
I think that covers it... | |
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11-01-2007, 03:23 PM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 429
| Quote:
Originally Posted by App13 Not sure if anyone can help, but you all seem at least MILDLY intelligent.
As part of a science project about antimatter I am building a replica particle accelerator. Granted this will not actually accelerate particles or create antimatter, it is just a representation of the process.
I have the actual accelerator built (Circular with opposing electro magnets for all who care). However I have come at a standstill for a vacuum chamber. I have had a few ideas but none of them seem very good.
Thus, I come to you for help. Anyone have any ideas for a cheap yet effective vacuum chamber? Needs to be about 2' by 2' and go to about to 15" mercury. |
Is this for a Science Fair? If so, Watch Dr. Who, he uses a telephone booth, so maybe a smaller version. Or..... can you build a Black Hole and unleash it on the earth, and we'll all get swallowed up into antimatterness and have to re-evolve? The point being, will there be fencing there? | |
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11-01-2007, 03:25 PM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,234
| Quote:
Originally Posted by App13 For anyone confused, the vacuum is just to cool the electromagnets and help even out the metal ball. | now I really am confused 
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11-01-2007, 06:01 PM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Athos FC ~)---------- San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,246
| Quote:
Originally Posted by App13 10 electromagnets facing each other. North sides in. | So you are making a model cross-section of the accelerator?
Why use a vacuum to cool the magnets? I dont think that's how CERN cools their magnets. And in any case, your model will be non-working, and you dont have super-conducting magnets to cool anyway... so I'm still confused.
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"I don't mind being the smartest man in the world. I just wish it wasn't this one." - Ozymandias
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11-01-2007, 06:13 PM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New Hamphire
Posts: 391
| Constant vacuum, pulling the hot air out. That however is just a theory. I decided I needed an effective cooling system after my casing started to melt... I asked my physical science teacher and he said that CERN cooled theirs with vacuums.
This is the first time I have ever attempted something like this, thanks for all your feedback. | |
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