Experimenting with Tournament Management

[teacup]

Over the last few years we have been experimenting with different approaches to scheduling and running tournaments. Though obviously these tournaments have been much smaller than National events, I would like to share our results.

These concepts work best for tournaments with competent refs for each strip not for events self refereed.

There is a belief that waiting around at fencing tournaments is inevitable, I don’t believe this has to be so. Why not try something new if the tournament runs more efficiently and is a more pleasurable experience for everyone?

1. Scheduling Open/Men’s and Women’s events of the same weapon on the same day rather than on alternate days over a weekend.

A couple of years ago a female epee fencer bemoaned the fact that having Men/Open Epee on one day and the Women’s event the next day on a weekend meant that as a couple, she and her boyfriend had to spend two days at a tournament and perhaps incur hotel expenses. I starting wondering why this was almost always the way events are scheduled for local and/or regional tournaments. So we held Men’s and Women’s Foil on one day and Men’s and Women’s Epee on the next day. The response was overwhelmingly positive. More people stayed to watch finals, people were grateful for only having to come one day and the refs were happy not to switch between two weapons. The few refs that only ref one weapon were happy to only have to work one day of their weekend.

2. Scheduling the smaller event first.

Many tournaments, including National events, are run with the larger open/men’s events started first and the smaller, women’s events, starting later. This results in fencers having to wait longer periods of time between the start of pools, between the end of pools and the start of DEs and between DE rounds. I have found that by reversing the order, it is possible to compress the schedule and reduce waiting times.

Using Fencing Time or other fencing program, with 9 or 10 strips and adequate referees, get the smaller event started with the minimum number of strips set up and continue setting up the additional strips while the pools are taking place and the bigger event is checking in. The larger event’s pools start about 60 - 90 minutes later, after the smaller event’s first or second round of DE’s when the women/smaller event will require fewer strips. By the time the second, larger men’s/open DE’s start, the women’s event will be done, allowing all strips to be used for the initial DE rounds and thus requiring fewer flights to get through the rounds of 64, 32 and 16. When the Men/Open’s DEs get to the round of 8, there will be enough open strips to start the next women/smaller event. The concept continues as described for the next men’s event. This theory could also be applied with smaller sabre competitions scheduled before larger open epee events.

After utilizing this theory at an RYC, a father of a Y14 WE fencer told me that it was the fastest women’s tournament,14 fencers with two pools of seven, he had ever been to with check in to gold medal bout completed in two hours,.

3. Pools of eight for sabre.

Sabre is fast. With competent refs and double stripping if needed, having pools of eight means fencers get a lot of fencing.

[KD5MDK]

I'm boggled at the idea that a serious tournament won't have its strips all setup (or nearly so) before the competition day.

In my experience, when Women's and Mixed events (or any time a fencer is in multiple events simultaniously) are on top of each other it leads to long delays as fencers run back and forth between their pools and DEs of each weapon/event.

[edew]

I have recommended to our local hosts that they run the mid-sized event first, smallest second, and largest last (for a 3-event day), or small then large (for a 2-event day) because of the uncertainty of how large the large could be. Thus, it would have an open-ended end and there won't be any backlogs or tie-ups from having a large event.

The main problems are limited space, but the main asset is unlimited time. I can see, if the host is renting a school gym with limited time, to run the largest first and hope that it gets down to top-16 or smaller by the time the smaller event shows up. That makes sense for (virtually) unlimited space, but limited time. However, for our local events -- held at various clubs, we have limited space and unlimited time, so might as well spread the events out over the course of the day and hold the largest last so it doesn't push back on the next event if it is larger than expected.

We also suggest pools of 8 for saber if possible. Of course, if we have 21 fencers, we're going with pools of 7. If we have 24 fencers and enough strips, we'll go with pools of 6 instead of 3 pools of 8. With 16 and four strips, we can do two pools of 8, double stripped. A pool of 8 double stripped averages to 14 bouts per strip, which is slightly faster than a pool of 6, single stripped (15 bouts). Thus, we get balanced pools, ample amount of fencing, and fast prelim times. (Better than 4 pools of 4, ugh, or 6-5-5, which is ugh and unbalanced.)

I think double-stripped pools of 8 is better for foil and epee as well, if you have four strips. Gives the fencers more bouts, uses the same number of referees (as one might anticipate with the 4 strips on hand), is balanced and runs quickly.

[teacup]

I'm boggled at the idea that a serious tournament won't have its strips all setup (or nearly so) before the competition day.

In my experience, when Women's and Mixed events (or any time a fencer is in multiple events simultaniously) are on top of each other it leads to long delays as fencers run back and forth between their pools and DEs of each weapon/event.

Unfortunately the reality is not every tournament organizer has access to the venue the day before the event.

On the second day of a two day event the equipment is set up but either way this does not negate the overall concept of having the smaller or quicker event first.

This concept does work better when there are not cross over fencers. Men's and Women's events vs open and women's events, Sabre events before epee/foil.

[epeemike81]

There is a belief that waiting around at fencing tournaments is inevitable

I, for one, have no such belief.

I would doubt anybody else in my division does either.

Your ideas seem fine, though not particularly consequential. These are not solutions to the real inefficiencies which usually cause delays.

-m

[teacup]

I, for one, have no such belief.

I would doubt anybody else in my division does either.

Your ideas seem fine, though not particularly consequential. These are not solutions to the real inefficiencies which usually cause delays.

-m

You are lucky that no one in your division has had to wait in between pools and DE's, etc. Waits have been known to occur at National events so perhaps some of your division fencers may have experienced them there.

No, having the smaller event first may not be a "major" improvement to tournament efficiencies, I am merely sharing our experiences. It is up to organizers if they wish to try different concepts; they will make their own decisions as to what works well.

The concept of having women's and men's events of the same weapon on the same day is not suggested to address inefficiencies, although it may do so, but to make tournaments more enjoyable, convenient and less expensive for families and friends of the same weapon to attend events, which may raise participation and encourage fencers to stay and watch final bouts.

Having 8 person sabre pools is a suggestion to give fencers more fencing bouts.

[epeemike81]

You are lucky that no one in your division has had to wait in between pools and DE's, etc. Waits have been known to occur at National events so perhaps some of your division fencers may have experienced them there.

oh, I've experienced them, I just don't believe them to be inevitable (in fact I KNOW they're not inevitable).

Having 8 person sabre pools is a suggestion to give fencers more fencing bouts.

The way we tend to apply this is to avoid pools of 5. if we have ten fencers, we'll generally do a pool of ten.

-m

[Tomas N]

We ran a tournament last month that had around 50 fencers in open foil. A real time killer is getting through that first round of DEs. Do folks ever do a limited promotion (top 32) instead of promoting everyone at a local tournament as a way of saving time?

Tomas

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

If you want to see how little time you can wait between pools and DEs, attend a competition at Prise de Fer. I like to change uniforms between pools and DEs. I've given up trying at PdF.

Ask them how they do it. They have it down to a science there.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

We ran a tournament last month that had around 50 fencers in open foil. A real time killer is getting through that first round of DEs. Do folks ever do a limited promotion (top 32) instead of promoting everyone at a local tournament as a way of saving time?

Tomas

Yes to limiting promotion, but not for saving time per se (in our division). USUALLY our competitions promote everyone, but sometimes not. In those situations, we will often have a "Loser Tournament" (no, we don't really call it that...to their faces...) for those who are eliminated run at the same time as DEs. The auxilliary tournament is generally pools only.

[Chafunkta]

A couple of years ago a female epee fencer bemoaned the fact that having Men/Open Epee on one day and the Women’s event the next day on a weekend meant that as a couple, she and her boyfriend

So fencers only date people in their weapon of choice?

kidding...

I like this idea because the refs only have to be there for one day. I'm sure a lot of them appreciate that.

I've also found that Mixed events, with a Women's event in the same weapon the next day, will bring a low number of fencers for the Women's. Some of the women don't bother to show up for both days. Now you've split your fencers for the Women's event, which makes a small event even smaller.

[teacup]

So fencers only date people in their weapon of choice?

kidding...

I like this idea because the refs only have to be there for one day. I'm sure a lot of them appreciate that.

I've also found that Mixed events, with a Women's event in the same weapon the next day, will bring a low number of fencers for the Women's. Some of the women don't bother to show up for both days. Now you've split your fencers for the Women's event, which makes a small event even smaller.

I think you are agreeing with me that having the same weapon over two days may decrease the size of women's events.

Having separate men's and women's events on the same day may tend to increase the size of the women's events vs having a mixed event on one day and women's the next, which may decrease the size of the women's events since women may not want to show up for both days.

[Mauler]

If you want to see how little time you can wait between pools and DEs, attend a competition at Prise de Fer. I like to change uniforms between pools and DEs. I've given up trying at PdF.

Ask them how they do it. They have it down to a science there.

Prior to retirement, I reffed 200+ days a year, across 26 states, for 3 years. In that time, I have had an opportunity to experience a vast array of philosophies and business models behind fencing tournament operation. Different communities form their own ideals regarding their "perfect tournament," and many have come up with a suitable solution.


.......( lots of stuff deleted because I strayed too far from this thread ).......


I can safely say that there are two kinds of tournament operators:

1) Prise de Fer
2) Rest of the World

There are lots of great operators out there. Some I have seen with my own eyes, while others I am aware of and would love to one day experience for myself.

Difference, however, is that "Team PdF", as a tournament operating entity (separate from their other endeavor -- fencing), doesn't compare themselves to others' standards. They set their own. They find out what's not achievable, then they go find out how to make it happen. Once they've done that, they find out how to beat their own track record.

Anyone looking to upgrade the efficiency of their tournament operation a few notches should consider hiring their services, then take notes.

[Mauler]

There is a belief that waiting around at fencing tournaments is inevitable, I don’t believe this has to be so. Why not try something new if the tournament runs more efficiently and is a more pleasurable experience for everyone?

Kudos to your willingness to break away from the "common sense" that limit so many others. Such notions are only true if the masses agree to believe in them.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Difference, however, is that "Team PdF", as a tournament operating entity (separate from their other endeavor -- fencing), doesn't compare themselves to others' standards. They set their own.

I was once in charge of running some smallish tournament in Western Mass. I think there were two events that day, and it was clear that the bathroom was far enough away that almost no matter what I did, I would have the DE tableaux out before the person who headed to the bathroom immediately after pools got back----

I still got timed, and when I took something like 3 whole minutes (since I was going to at least give people time to walk to the bathroom and back), I got made fun of for how slow I am.

And I'm "Team PdF Extended Edition", not even "Team PdF Hardcore".

I think what Mike is trying to say is that there are people who, given unlimited refs and strips, still couldn't manage to use them appropriately, and these suggestions wouldn't help those people......... Which is true.

[epeemike81]

I think what Mike is trying to say is that there are people who, given unlimited refs and strips, still couldn't manage to use them appropriately, and these suggestions wouldn't help those people......... Which is true.

Pretty much. Since this sounds rather pessimistic and hopeless, though, I'll simply say that I do feel anybody can be taught and improved. I just think that the issues teacup is addressing is like (to steal an analogy) rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

There are, in most cases, bigger fish to fry. If in teacup's case he/she has already taken care of the major issues, then kudos!

The real key is a philosophy of constant improvement. The very first thing that should happen after a major event is run is for the organizers to sit down over a nice dinner and ask "what could have been better?" The only wrong answer is "Nothing."

-m

[DJ Apostrophe]

Having separate men's and women's events on the same day may tend to increase the size of the women's events vs having a mixed event on one day and women's the next, which may decrease the size of the women's events since women may not want to show up for both days.

You're comparison here is pretty much apples to dump trucks... Having a Men's and Women's event vs. having a mixed event vs. having a mixed and Women's event and how it will influence the turnout is one debate, and scheduling your two events (if you decide to go that way) on separate days or the same day is a different question entirely.

I feel the first question needs to be answered by asking the right questions. A: What are you trying to accomplish? (National Qualifier, Large Regional Tournament, a fun time for all, etc.) B: What do the fencers in the area want? C: What kind of fencer base are you drawing from? D: What, if any, conflicting events do you have going on?

After you've answered all those questions, you can then move on to the scheduling question. Your answers here are dependent on your answers from the above question, as well as things like strip and referee availability other events you are running, etc.

For having small local events (opens, C & Unders, Div II / JO Qualifiers) having both events (usually Men's / Women's) on the same day is usually preferable... it allows the referees who only referee one weapon to have an off day on the weekend, allows referees to concentrate on the one weapon, eases scheduling (a pool of ME or WE takes a similar amount of time, not the case for MS vs Anything else), and generally makes for a smoother tournament experience.

Larger events in contrast (think Sectionals, large regional competitions (Pomme de Terre, Cherry Blossom, etc.) tend to run better if you stagger your open events across your two available days (i.e. MS,WF,ME one day and WS,MF,WE the other day), as it will allow you to use your stronger referees later in each event (i.e. your sabre referees only have one event a day to worry about and you only have to staff one epee event a day, and can do it with your epee only referees and your strong epee referees).

I could drone on and on about tournament scheduling and what it does to your event... but it gets boring real fast.

-w

[epeemike81]

For having small local events (opens, C & Unders, Div II / JO Qualifiers) having both events (usually Men's / Women's) on the same day is usually preferable... it allows the referees who only referee one weapon to have an off day on the weekend, allows referees to concentrate on the one weapon, eases scheduling (a pool of ME or WE takes a similar amount of time, not the case for MS vs Anything else), and generally makes for a smoother tournament experience.

Also, in the case of non-qualifiers, it allows for mixing in the event of low turnout in one gender (usually womens).

-m

[dberke]

In our area, mostly all events are run mixed except for things like qualifiers that require the gender separation. We also have occasional women's events but they tend to be small (under 15 people.)

At our large regional events, we offer both mixed and women's events in each weapon. Since a lot of women like fencing the mixed, we always schedule them on alternate days. Our typical schedule is Mixed Foil, Women's Epee, and Mixed Saber on one day, and Mixed Epee, Women's Foil and Women's Saber on the other.

That works out pretty well in our area. One thing that also helps is that many of our strong foil referees tend to fence in the mixed foil, but they're available to referee the next day at the women's foil (unless they're fencing epee.)

We experimented with holding the smaller events in the morning like edew suggested, and aside from a couple glitches, it actually worked pretty well. We're lucky, though - since we hold the events at dedicated fencing clubs, we don't have to worry about being out of the venue by a certain time. Plus, we don't have much setup/teardown to do.

I think each area should experiment to find out what works best for them. The best schedule is a function of not only how many fencers you have, but also how many fencers like to do multiple events, and who you have available to ref when they're not fencing.

Dan

[commiemermaid]

If you want to see how little time you can wait between pools and DEs, attend a competition at Prise de Fer.
Ask them how they do it. They have it down to a science there.

I found that out last week and ended up with a couple of red cards while scrambling to find a working epee.