Another Alterations Thread

[gatsby]

Hi guys-
I've been reading f.net for awhile and decided to join.
But anyway, there have been plenty of jacket alteration threads, but I have another question regarding plastrons.

My LP FIE plastron has a cotton lining that is extremely absorbent and gets hot as hell. And though I love the plastron, I would like it even better if i could rip out this layer and possible replace it with an underarmour-type one. I'm not an international fencer or anything, but would really like to know if this kind of alteration would be legal.

Thanks ahead of time

[HDG]

The USFA note after t.45 says you need two layers (which you are planning), but doesn't specify beyond that, other than to say it need not be 800n. I think you're in the clear. Whether sacrificing the protection is wise is another issue, however...

[Purple Fencer]

The USFA note after t.45 says you need two layers (which you are planning), but doesn't specify beyond that, other than to say it need not be 800n. I think you're in the clear. Whether sacrificing the protection is wise is another issue, however...

I'll agree there...I asked Dan DeChaine the same question re the double layer in the weapon arm of a jacket a while back...

So you could certainly replace the inner layer...technically you could replace it with a sheer nylon like in a women's hose....wouldn't be GOOD, but it's be TECHNICALLY legal...

[Inquartata]

Mmmm, but if it's FIE doesn't any alteration of the original specifications void the certification? Not a problem in the US, but still...

[HDG]

Gatsby does say he (she) isn't planning to compete internationally, but yeah, may as well tear off the CE label.

[Inquartata]

I had no plans to fence internationally, either. Occasionally one stumbles into things.

[gatsby]

thanks for the quick responses guys
I should clarify my question. What I meant was: would the plastron still be FIE legal? I'd never need it to be, but for some reason, I'd like to keep it FIE approved anyway (early symptoms of OCD??? maybe =[ )

[HDG]

In that case, no. Not by a longshot.

[Purple Fencer]

Mmmm, but if it's FIE doesn't any alteration of the original specifications void the certification? Not a problem in the US, but still...

Since the FIE material ITSELF is not being altered and there are NO specs on what the 2nd layer has to be, I'd say no. If this were a change to something like a mask it may be different (there's still some debate about a fencer replacing teh lexan shield on his own on a visor mask, and if that invalidates the FIE certification)

Let me bounce this off Dan....i may be entirely wrong (which wouldn;t be the first time)

[Inquartata]

When I looked into it, Dan opined that adding tinting film to an LP Lexan window ( or rather the scratch-guard overshield ) would vitiate the FIE certification...and that's just adding something, not removing or replacing it with something else. ( It could be argued that the film actually added an infinitesimal amount of protection, but still, no go. )

[Purple Fencer]

When I looked into it, Dan opined that adding tinting film to an LP Lexan window ( or rather the scratch-guard overshield ) would vitiate the FIE certification...and that's just adding something, not removing or replacing it with something else. ( It could be argued that the film actually added an infinitesimal amount of protection, but still, no go. )

Interesting....did he give a reason??

Oh wait....he might've been concerned with materials or adhesives in the film degrading the shield...THAT I could understand (and is why we tell people to NOT mark their shields with a felt pen, since the ink may damage the lexan over time)

I seem to recall that discussion and thought how funny it'd be if every sabre fencer showed up with the lexan shield covered with that kind of film....just to piss off Roch!

[Inquartata]

No, he just said that any alteration to the mask---anything that wasn't a part of the design submitted for homologation---voided the certification.

I asked if writing your name in it wouldn't also constitute such a change, and he said "no". So I guess it has to a functional change...

[Purple Fencer]

No, he just said that any alteration to the mask---anything that wasn't a part of the design submitted for homologation---voided the certification.

I asked if writing your name in it wouldn't also constitute such a change, and he said "no". So I guess it has to a functional change...

Huh....I'd hardly consider adding a film layer a functional change....

I made a more functional change to by FIE foil mask years ago...even asked him about it (redesigning the head strap to hold it on my head a bit tighter) and he said nothing.

[Purple Fencer]

From Dan re the OP:

"Not knowing what the construction of the plastron is, or what the critical parameters of the construction are, I cannot say it removing the inner layer is legal or not. Since I do not know anything aboyut the plastron, I am unable to say if that inner layer is part of the protection or not. I suspect that in any FIE comtext, any alteration would be disallowed.

Sorry that I can't be of more help, but without more information, I am lost."

So...play it safe, don;t alter it, and just deal with it.

[fatfencer]

Hey Sam,

Get Dan to email me. He was going to email me the circuit diagram for his 3 meter box but despite a few emails on my part he hasn't responded. Maybe I don't have his correct email.

He told me he'd get it to me after the Tucson NAC but has probably forgotten by now(weeps bitterly...)

Fatfencer

Will be there this weekend btw. Sunday is as good a day as any.

[Zilverzmurfen]

My LP FIE plastron has a cotton lining...

Ok, I admit this could just be a language problem but this is how I understand your question:

You have an FIE plastron and want to replace the cotton lining with another textile fabric -- you are not looking to replace the actual 800N fabric. Am I correct?

This is how I understand it, and based upon that I cannot understand why this would not be legal. The remaining 800N fabric is still...uh...800N.

I understand the bit about the plastron needs to have two layers of fabric, but why it would be illegar to replace the non-FIE fabric with another non-FIE fabric of your choice -- that I do not understand.

Can someone please clarify this?

[Purple Fencer]

Hey Sam,

Get Dan to email me. He was going to email me the circuit diagram for his 3 meter box but despite a few emails on my part he hasn't responded. Maybe I don't have his correct email.

He told me he'd get it to me after the Tucson NAC but has probably forgotten by now(weeps bitterly...)

Fatfencer

Will be there this weekend btw. Sunday is as good a day as any.

Yeah....my understanding is that he and Dave Clarke are the tourney armorers, as I'll be selling.

[fatfencer]

Ok, I admit this could just be a language problem but this is how I understand your question:

You have an FIE plastron and want to replace the cotton lining with another textile fabric -- you are not looking to replace the actual 800N fabric. Am I correct?

This is how I understand it, and based upon that I cannot understand why this would not be legal. The remaining 800N fabric is still...uh...800N.

I understand the bit about the plastron needs to have two layers of fabric, but why it would be illegar to replace the non-FIE fabric with another non-FIE fabric of your choice -- that I do not understand.

Can someone please clarify this?

To me, much like the copyright thread, this is what we'd call a scoff law. A law not really worth paying attention to and with little consequence to boot.

For example, your typical plastron manufacturer will use MANY different underliners for plastrons. I own three different FIE plastrons from ALLSTAR. ALL of them have different underliners. I can't imagine anyone even noticing, provided a tailor did the stitching.

Same with their mask bibs. Some are allstar red, others have that goofy pattern. I cannot believe that homologation testing requires a new submission everytime. For example. The mask/plastron Allstar has submitted may have one type of linercloth, after they receive FIE stamp, they switch to another pattern or type of material.

Technically illegal I suppose, but I'm pretty sure Allstar wouldn't submit 3 masks/plastrons for each type of inner liner fabric. If the liner doesn't affect the strength or protective qualities then I'd be willing to bet it can be swapped at will. There's no substantive difference between the manufacturer doing it or you, the customer doing it. If the rule has been violated, then its violated regardless. However, if Allstar can do it and get away with it, why can't you or I?

Furthermore, if Allstar does it, and it is not a violation, then it is also NOT a violation if you or I do it.

FF

[TBean]

A someone who sews I think this is also a construstion issue - not having the plasteron in front of me this is difficult to say 100%. How will you be removing the inner lining - in doing that will you be damamging the outter fabric (shredding seam allowances perhaps) or weakening seams. When it is put back together what is the seam strength going to be or if there is some requirement on the amount of seam allowance that you will no longer have or when it was orginally put together is there some requirement on the thread being used and its strength - is it nylon or heavy cotton.

Again, without the garment I cannot conclusively say that any of these things will be an issue. I also cannot honestly see desconstructing a piece of equipment to this extent and having it still be considered FIE.

Also, unless you are doing this yourself, it may be cheaper or more efficient to just find a different plasteron.

[bruisedfleche]

As a former professional seamstress, I have to agree with Tbean. Regardless of the rules, you are better off getting a new plastron. It won't be cheap to replace fabric and you probably won't be happy with the results (no matter how talented the tailor may be). I have a very old Ulmann plastron I asbolutely love but it needs to be switched from RH to LH, but I don't love it enough to undertake the project of ripping it apart and pieceing it back together. Most plastrons are cheap enough to take a chance on a whole new one. I have an Absolute plastron and it is a bit bulky in the arm, but when it gets wet, it's still comfortable and it drys quickly.