The Official Nike Shoes Thread

[fatfencer]

Originally Posted by academe

<sarcasm> Gosh, I guess you know way more than I do about shoes and how they are made...silly me...</sarcasm>

Do some research...a simple google search "definition shoe last" might be interesting...

Kinda, I did author a thread or two on this forum about shoemaking and designing a fencing shoe. We're actually talking about the same thing except on the adidas shoe the cmeva is on the INSIDE of the last and on most shoes its on the OUTSIDE between the last and the rubberized outsole.

Thanks for playing...

Fatfencer

[academe]

Originally Posted by fatfencer

Kinda, I did author a thread or two on this forum about shoemaking and designing a fencing shoe. We're actually talking about the same thing except on the adidas shoe the cmeva is on the INSIDE of the last and on most shoes its on the OUTSIDE between the last and the rubberized outsole.

Thanks for playing...

Fatfencer

Gosh, I guess authoring a thread or two on f.net trumps working in the industry for many years both in research and development. Trust me, I know a bit more about this than you do...

We are not talking about the same thing. A last is the form around which a shoe is made. The last is what gives a shoe its shape. The last is removed after the shoe is finished. Here's one of many pages you can find that explains what a shoe last is:

http://www.nbwebexpress.com/informat...pageType=lasts

[HDG]

Great; another thread that has degenerated into "yes it is"; "oh no it isn't". Trend?

[OROD]

Originally Posted by HDG

Trend?

No it isnt. Wait, I changed my mind... yes it is!

.

[VorpalCat]

Originally Posted by OROD

No it isnt. Wait, I changed my mind... yes it is!

No you didn't! Oh, yes you did!

Or is that 'Oh no you di'n't!'

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by VorpalCat

No you didn't! Oh, yes you did!

Or is that 'Oh no you di'n't!'

Look, if you want to have an argument you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Zilverzmurfen

Look, if you want to have an argument you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

That was never five minutes.

[fatfencer]

Originally Posted by academe

Gosh, I guess authoring a thread or two on f.net trumps working in the industry for many years both in research and development. Trust me, I know a bit more about this than you do...

We are not talking about the same thing. A last is the form around which a shoe is made. The last is what gives a shoe its shape. The last is removed after the shoe is finished. Here's one of many pages you can find that explains what a shoe last is:

http://www.nbwebexpress.com/informat...pageType=lasts

So if its NOT called a last then what do you call the foot shaped part everything is sewed on to. You know, when you take the insole out and you see all that stitching? Many times it looks like the thickness of a plastic card and it has all the stitiching around it...what is THAT?

FF

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by fatfencer

So if its NOT called a last then what do you call the foot shaped part everything is sewed on to. You know, when you take the insole out and you see all that stitching? Many times it looks like the thickness of a plastic card and it has all the stitiching around it...what is THAT?

FF

A Welt

http://www.shoeguide.org/Shoe_Anatomy

[academe]

Originally Posted by fatfencer

So if its NOT called a last then what do you call the foot shaped part everything is sewed on to. You know, when you take the insole out and you see all that stitching? Many times it looks like the thickness of a plastic card and it has all the stitiching around it...what is THAT?

FF

The way you are describing it, it sounds like what I know as an insole board, or just plain board. When shoes are lasted (made) some are slip lasted (meaning they have no board inside, you'd just see a stitch, or stitches, running down the length of the shoe, maximum flexibility and least stability), board lasted (have a board running length of shoe, less flexibility and more stability), or combination lasted (3/4, half, or less of a board, a compromise between the two).

The flexibility and stability are further moderated/compromised by the midsole, heel counters, and other parts of the shoe.

A couple of sites that may be about what you are referencing can be found at:

http://www.newbalancetoronto.ca/last_construction.htm (new balance)

http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/10390...per_Board.html (a manufacturer of said boards)

Trying to make this thread more constructive (thanks HDG for the reality check!) I'm wondering how flexible and stable a shoe fencers would like? It seems to me that the "other sport" shoes people fence in, and some of the popular lower cost models compromise flexibility by having thick midsoles.

This provides more cushioning, but I don't think the impact forces of fencing (even for the most bouncy epee fencer!) are close to those of running or court sports, so you could get away with less of a midsole as long as it had better cushioning characteristics than a wrestling shoe (point made above by several people).

So, what characteristics would a new (Nike) shoe have to have in order to tempt you to abandon your favorite fencing shoe?

(Low price is probably not an option...)

[FoilyDeath]

Originally Posted by academe

So, what characteristics would a new (Nike) shoe have to have in order to tempt you to abandon your favorite fencing shoe?

(Low price is probably not an option...)

Wehey, a legitimate question!
I currently use the old, high top, Viktorias. On those, the main thing they could improve on would probably be durability...Generally speaking however, things they should work on:
a) good ankle support. Whilst I did use the D'artagnan's for a while back in the day, I find my high top Viktoria's make sure I'm not in pain after an ugly looking fall.
b) The ability to tighten to the damn things. Both LP/High-Tec blades and scimitars we're nice, durable shoes, but I just couldn't tighten them onto my feet due to the fact that they we're in large part made of plastic.

[fatfencer]

Originally Posted by academe

The way you are describing it, it sounds like what I know as an insole board, or just plain board. When shoes are lasted (made) some are slip lasted (meaning they have no board inside, you'd just see a stitch, or stitches, running down the length of the shoe, maximum flexibility and least stability), board lasted (have a board running length of shoe, less flexibility and more stability), or combination lasted (3/4, half, or less of a board, a compromise between the two).

The flexibility and stability are further moderated/compromised by the midsole, heel counters, and other parts of the shoe.

A couple of sites that may be about what you are referencing can be found at:

http://www.newbalancetoronto.ca/last_construction.htm (new balance)

http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/10390...per_Board.html (a manufacturer of said boards)

Trying to make this thread more constructive (thanks HDG for the reality check!) I'm wondering how flexible and stable a shoe fencers would like? It seems to me that the "other sport" shoes people fence in, and some of the popular lower cost models compromise flexibility by having thick midsoles.

This provides more cushioning, but I don't think the impact forces of fencing (even for the most bouncy epee fencer!) are close to those of running or court sports, so you could get away with less of a midsole as long as it had better cushioning characteristics than a wrestling shoe (point made above by several people).

So, what characteristics would a new (Nike) shoe have to have in order to tempt you to abandon your favorite fencing shoe?

(Low price is probably not an option...)

I had hear the terms board lasted and slip lasted which led me to believe that plastic card thing was called a 'last'. My bad.

Nevertheless, a shoe has to be extremely INflexible at the heel and thru the arch. It needs to be very flexible and a bit spongy at the forefoot.

The shoe needs to be extrmely lightweight to not put stress on the ankles.

It also depends on the footwork. Some people, like Baldini have a very musical, tappity tappity type of footwork.

Others have a bouncy bouncy on the balls of your feet type of footwork.

Me, I just take large steps. So I'm somewhere in the middle of the 2 above.

I designed a shoe but I can't find a company to manufacture it. Quelle bummage..

FF

[bigdawg2121]

Originally Posted by academe

This provides more cushioning, but I don't think the impact forces of fencing (even for the most bouncy epee fencer!) are close to those of running or court sports...

You know, I think someone did a study a few years back before the asymmetrical Equipment shoes came out. If I recall correctly it found that the forces generated by fencers are rather large. Especially during lunges etc, I think the forces over certain areas of the foot even exceed what most runners or court sport athletes generate. The problem is finding a way to provide that close too the ground feel AND the necessary cushioning. The Equipment shoes probably did the best job of that to date.

[fatfencer]

I got to feel the viktoria low tops once and I think that that is a better feeling shoe but the bottom surface was so delicate that it was destined for use on the piste only whereas the asyms COULD be used on a well polished, well cleaned gym floor. Its also a better looking, cleaner, more fashionable shoe than anything else out there.

The only real problem with the asyms and the Equipment high tops was that they were too bottom heavy and the foam in the forefoot was too stiff and not cushioning. There was also too much rubber in the heel.

By and large they are the best shoes still, though the Hitec scimitars are a close second due to their grippyness on gym floors. scimitars and blades are just to ugly though. No real style at all, IMHO.

FF

[academe]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

You know, I think someone did a study a few years back before the asymmetrical Equipment shoes came out. If I recall correctly it found that the forces generated by fencers are rather large. Especially during lunges etc, I think the forces over certain areas of the foot even exceed what most runners or court sport athletes generate. The problem is finding a way to provide that close too the ground feel AND the necessary cushioning. The Equipment shoes probably did the best job of that to date.

I would love to see this data. If you can track down the article you mentioned and send me the citation, I'd be interested.

I think you are right that the forces, especially in the forefoot can be significant. I'd like to see an animation of the distribution of forces as measured during certain actions. I've seen them for running, walking, and b-ball. Perhaps the Paul's (Alex?) have access to this kind of data.

As a point of discussion, go to the link below and look at the pressure distribution under the foot during walking.

http://www.uni-essen.de/%7Eqpd800/animwf.html

What do you think this would look like for a lunge? Think about how it would look for each foot, and you see the logic of an asymmetrical design.

Look at the second link on pressure distribution for running measured in two different shoe types.

http://www.uni-essen.de/%7Eqpd800/animscomp.html

In this animation you can see how different shoes can change the force distribution reducing the peak in some instances, but also slowing the peak. As per BDawg's observation, dealing with these forces and providing good ground feel is the challenge.

Then throw in aesthetics, and the science goes right out the door!

For what it's worth, I liked the Asyms, but their wear characteristics left much to be desired. The Leon Paul offerings are the best I've seen to date.

Edit: Interesting information on the patent for Asymmetrical shoes with info on fencing found at http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6430847-fulltext.html

[Barry Paul]

Below are some test results on various shoes.

An investigation into the heel strike transient attenuation properties of six designs of fencing shoe during a forward lunge.

The purpose of this study was to examine the null hypothesis is that there is no significant difference (P<0.05) in the ability of the following fencing shoes; Adidas Adistar lows, Adidas D’Artagnan II, Hi-Tech Blades with and without contour insoles, and Li-Ning, to attenuate the heel strike transient when performing a fencing lunge.

An elite female fencer performed 10 lunges in each pair of shoes onto a force plate. The fencer was required to perform each lunge at competition speed so that the heel strike transient produced would accurately imitate that of a competitive situation.

Results
The means and standard deviations for the vertical and antero-posterior, and medio-lateral horizontal components of the heel strike transient are summarized below, for all types of shoe.

Type of Shoe Mean Vertical
Component (N) Mean Forward and Back Shear (N) Mean Lateral shear (N)
Adidas D’Artagnan II 2044.277 421.477 71.041
Hi-Tech Blades 1983.499 466.167 61.448
Li-Ning 2392.241 408.576 84.476
Adidas Adistar Lows 2184.024 429.923 60.739
Hi-Tech Blades With Insoles 1660.94 498.553 48.694

There was a significant difference (p<0.05) between nearly all shoes tested in terms of the vertical component of the heel strike transient, reflecting a significant variation of commercially available shoes.

The present study found that the best shoes at attenuating the vertical component of the shock pulse from the heel strike transient were the Hi-Tech Blades (with contour fit insoles), closely followed by the Hi-Tech Blades without insoles. The worst shoes were the Li-Nings which were significantly worse (P<0.05) than all the other shoes in attenuating the vertical component of the heel strike transient, but the best in terms of attenuating shear. They were however also the worst at protecting the fencer from medio-lateral components of the heel strike transient.

[FoilyDeath]

Hm...I see you didn't test my faithful Viktorias...Too superior for such measly testing obviously:P

[DangerMouse]

Last night at a tournament I was talking to a couple of people who have been helping test the new nike shoes. They both really liked the design and said nike has been making changes at their suggestion and is about to put them into production aiming for a price point below the adidas.