Former Eastern European Coaches and Knees

[journalmom]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

And I thought it was funny that you posted a defense of your profession against a generalized statement (and rightly so) -- and in the process -- managed to make an indirect, generalize slam against another profession!

No harm done.

AE

I guess I used the wrong term when I said, "in general". I'm sure there are more coaches who care about their fencers than the ones mentioned in this thread. I apologize if I offended the coaching profession, I didn't mean to. I only wanted to point out that some coaches are callous to the condition of the fencers and their injuries because they just want them to win or because of money. I'm sure you are an exception. Sorry, I won't make any more general statements.

Hoping "No harm done"...

[JEC]

As a neurologist, we see each other professional failures....

[bashing]The only difference is that while our failures might be hurting, yours might not be even feeling ... I have also seen 2 cases of disections after manipulations at the neck.[/bashing]

I have sent a few people with low back pains to the chiropractors. There is clearly a role for their professional services, and in some cases without mechanical injuries, I seen dramatic improvements under their care. Manipulations on the neck are something that we discourage.

In regards, to the knee discussion above, I agree with journalmom's comments.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


I just got a mental image of what Mo´s daughter will feel like once she is 50, and that image is not pretty.

Mo: Can you not simply say to the trainer that you will follow some advice from the doctors, some advice from the trainer - only that which concerns what happens on the strip - and that is that. What way can the trainer really enforce his wish on your daughter, since you presumably are doing the paying?


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Durando]

Knees, overtraining, knees, knees, knees, yeah, yeah, yeah. The real, long-range solution to the problem, one that would truly benefit American and British fencing (but does nothing for fencers currently involved in the sport) it to stop importing and adoring and admiring coaches from countries where the training culture is or was completely authoritarian. The US in particular needs to bring its Eastern European coaches into line (or worse) but first it needs to build up domestic coaching.

The more I see of international fencing, the more I'm convinced this is true. I'm especially mindful of Allen's grim joke in the thread because it is the kind of things I have seen American athletes respond to with a grin. They internalize a training culture that grew under completely authoritarian circumstances which is foreign to their own culture. Perhaps they do so because it validates their efforts. The number of plyometric exercises I've see in American clubs is completely off the charts. These are excellent exercises, of course, but you have to train up to a rather good level before they can help.

Building up domestic coaching is happening on its own, but it needs to be much better organized. There is all kinds of great work being done in sports science in the States; the French read it with great interest. Unfortunately, a preponderance of people coaching in America seem to be quite in the dark. (I don't mean to sound so categorical--I'm writing very quickly and am in a hurry; retractions of any overstatement will be freely conceded.)

[journalmom]

Although this is a fencing forum, knee problems to be specific, I feel I have to respond to those people who don’t know much about chiropractic and thus posted these threads.

I disagree with you on one thing –

The only difference is that while our failures might be hurting, yours might not be even feeling

The rate of injury or death of your failures is much higher than our failures since we never cause death and rarely, direct injury…as indicated by our much lower rate of malpractice insurance than that of MD’s.

Having said that, and not knowing the detail of the two dissection cases, I can’t comment on the real cause of your patients’ demise. However, I, along with majority of the chiropractors, always screen our patients for any compromises in the integrity of the cervical arterial system as best as we can in the confines of our office without the sophisticated diagnostic imaging methods, i.e. IMA. And for all my cervical patients and for the majority of the chiropractors, I am happy to report that none of them suffered the demise of your two reported cases.

There are many research and case studies that suggest that “the risk associated with chiropractic manipulation of the neck is both small and inaccurately estimated. The estimated level of risk is smaller than that associated with many commonly used diagnostic tests or prescription drugs.” (Cervical Manipulation and Risk of Stroke by Moira K. Kapral and Susan J. Bondy)

One study found that “there were 43 cases of neurological symptoms following cervical manipulation over the 10-year period. Of these, 20 were minor and were not diagnosed as stroke by a neurologist. Twenty-three cases of stroke or vertebral artery dissection following cervical manipulation were reported. The frequency of hypertension, diabetes, use of oral contraceptives, migraine headaches and smoking in these 23 patients were noted. (Haldeman S, Carey P, Townsend M, Papdopoulos C. Arterial dissection following cervical manipulation: the chiropractic experience. CMAJ 2001)

In other words, out of the 134.5 million cervical manipulations performed by chiropractors during the 10 year period, there were 23 cases of neurological symptoms as result. That means 1 in 5.85 million cervical manipulations caused a neurological symptoms of stroke. The second part of the report indicates that the causes of dissections were complicated by the history of the patients and not just the manipulations. The group concluded that earlier surveys of neurologists did not review patient charts to determine the type of manipulation that was administered or even whether a manipulation was performed during the chiropractic visit implicated in the dissection.

It’s been known that stroke can be caused by physical activities like a vigorous game of volleyball or coughing, or motor vehicle accidents. Even as mild maneuver as getting your hair washed in a beauty salon (sitting in a chair with the neck over extended over a sink) or even turning the neck before changing lanes while driving can cause micro dissections that go unnoticed. If any of these patients happen to have cervical manipulations right afterwards, the real cause of the dissections can never be determined.

Thus, as I sincerely appreciate you referring your patients to us for low back pains, you should reconsider about not referring your patients for neck pains. We do screen our patients vigorously as we, too, don’t want to have patients having strokes in our offices. We like to make them feel better; not feel anything as you implied.

I have one suggestion I can make as a chiropractor to anyone seeking spinal manipulation as therapy. In order to prevent any injuries from spinal manipulations, as is any other type of procedures, the patient has to let the doctor know of their complete medical history. As indicated above, cervical spinal manipulations can be contraindicated in some patients with certain medical history. Also, go to a chiropractor recommended by someone who had a successful experience. Don't go to someone just because he/she is in your insurance network of doctors. And I believe that goes for ANY doctors, MD's, DO's, DC's etc..

P.S. I became a chiropractor because even with all the modern diagnostic imaging and latest drugs my neurologist prescribed for my migraine headaches, it was the cervical manipulations that my chiropractor performed that cured all my headaches. I no longer suffer with any kind of headaches and unless you have suffered from headaches like I did, you wouldn’t know what kind of crippling effect it has on your life. As sappy as it might sound, I wanted to help others like me.

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by Durando

The US in particular needs to bring its Eastern European coaches into line (or worse) but first it needs to build up domestic coaching.

.......

Building up domestic coaching is happening on its own, but it needs to be much better organized. There is all kinds of great work being done in sports science in the States; the French read it with great interest. Unfortunately, a preponderance of people coaching in America seem to be quite in the dark. (I don't mean to sound so categorical--I'm writing very quickly and am in a hurry; retractions of any overstatement will be freely conceded.)

American fencers do seem to worship the "East European" mystique. I had one fencer tell me that I would never be accepted as a decent coach "because I didn't have a Slavic name and accent"...

Most American coaches "in the trenches" teach what they were taught, usually by other partially trained fencers, leading to the level of coaching that you, and others, have referred to. Another issue is that in many colleges I've talked to, they have little knowledge of fencing and often find it difficult to connect what they teach to what a fencing coach needs to know. So there is a major disconnect there.

As to better organized, I can second that. If one wants to teach and coach fencing (really a different set of skills from fencing itself), finding out the how is hard, but then actually doing it is harder. Coaches College? Very valuable, but happens once a year, so you have to be ready to be in Colorado Springs for 1 to 4 weeks in the summer for several years, and have the resources to do so.

Currently, the USFCA is more about examining your current skill level with some self study (reading list) and occasional clinics. Both are very valuable, but provides little or any structure. The USFCA is working on the issue, but answers will take time.

So I don't know the answers, but I do know that many people see the problems in coaching.

As the for the OP's knee (and other joint) issues, that's one of the reasons I started studying various exercise & physiology texts. While fencing helped my knee strength problems tremulously, it's left me with significant elbow problems. I want to 1. teach fencing technique that does not cause pain or physical damage to the fencer, and 2. teach strengthening exercises that improve the fencers performance as well as safeguard their wellbeing.


John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[Mo]

Originally Posted by jfarmer

So I don't know the answers, but I do know that many people see the problems in coaching.

As the for the OP's knee (and other joint) issues, that's one of the reasons I started studying various exercise & physiology texts. While fencing helped my knee strength problems tremulously, it's left me with significant elbow problems. I want to 1. teach fencing technique that does not cause pain or physical damage to the fencer, and 2. teach strengthening exercises that improve the fencers performance as well as safeguard their wellbeing.


John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

It seems that both you and Durando really do understand the need for coaches who can respect an athlete and work with them so they can do their best.
Durandos post was so spot on that it was difficult to put a response. The points made are in complete agreement with what I think.
There are some good coaches from Europe. We all know a few.
John, your two goals are excellent.
Maybe more and more coaches will see the benefit.
The Momster

[journalmom]

Originally Posted by jfarmer

As the for the OP's knee (and other joint) issues, that's one of the reasons I started studying various exercise & physiology texts. While fencing helped my knee strength problems tremulously, it's left me with significant elbow problems. I want to 1. teach fencing technique that does not cause pain or physical damage to the fencer, and 2. teach strengthening exercises that improve the fencers performance as well as safeguard their wellbeing.

I would think that coach's goal should be to be one's coach for a very long time so it only makes sense, to me at least, that the fencer won't be injured so as not to stop fencing. That's besides the obvious reason of being a thoughtful adult who cares about the kids (or other adults). So your desire to teach in the two ways you mentioned above are very smart, if not, admirable. I'm glad there are coaches like you already


P.S. I think one of the main differences between American and Eastern European (and I think some of the Asian countries too) philosophy of Olympic Sports is that it's one of the ways in which the athletes can get ahead in the society so the training is a lot more fierce to the point of being 'life or death' scenarios. So forget injuries or whining; you do as you are told, end of discussion. But it's not like that here in America. Fencing is an option to most kids. Just my opinion.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by journalmom

I think one of the main differences between American and Eastern European (and I think some of the Asian countries too) philosophy of Olympic Sports is that it's one of the ways in which the athletes can get ahead in the society so the training is a lot more fierce to the point of being 'life or death' scenarios. So forget injuries or whining; you do as you are told, end of discussion. But it's not like that here in America. Fencing is an option to most kids. Just my opinion.

It is, an option for US fencers.
I've talked to more than one coach who can't understand why kids don't want to fence anymore either during college or after.
They have so much invested in fencing, it should be more difficult to walk away.
But is it really?
I see my kid getting so burned out.
A large part of the problem is the coach and members of the National Coach Squad demanding that the kids do everything exactly their way.
Many of the fencers know what works for them. If they try to do what works for them and it doesn't match what the coach wants, there is pressure put on them to conform.
Something as simple as letting a fencer unwind after a hard two days of fencing is "not allowed." The coach sees it as missing training time where as the fencer and the parent see it as recovery time. Cramming a kid in cattle class for a 10 or more hour flight is just plain inhumane. The soreness and tired muscles just intensify from sitting for so long.
If the coaches would give a little, fencers may stick with it a little longer.
Overtraining is a real problem for most of the kids right now.
When kids do well they get a rest day, if not, they have to go back to practice the day after a trip.
This puts them in a downward spiral.
We need voices of reason.
The Momster

[journalmom]

Originally Posted by Mo

It is, an option for US fencers.
I've talked to more than one coach who can't understand why kids don't want to fence anymore either during college or after.

I say it's an option because if your daughter decides to quit, she can still succeed in life here in US. For some fencers in Eastern Europe or in China, it would be really hard given that they only know fencing. And that goes for other sports too like swimming, gymnastics, tennis, etc...
That's the reason why kids don't fence during or after college; there are other opportunities and not just fencing. Like most veterans I know, they go back to fencing after they've achieved their goals of having a career and family.

I hope your daughter can say 'NO' when she is truly unhappy being in a place at any stage of her fencing career. And YES, you can walk away if it's not good for you and you don't want to do it. That's the beauty of being in America.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

If she's unhappy now, she should take time off now. Sure, Olympics, blah blah blah. But if she takes time off now, she may actually enjoy fencing again when she gets back, and she won't be miserable in the meantime. Otherwise, by the time she stops, she will hate fencing, and she'll never want to come back, AND she'll have been miserable the whole time.

She might like the option of being a "normal kid" for a year.

Or even making the decision that after the Olympics she'll take a certain amount of time off-- end of story-- will help her get through the horrible period right now.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

She might like the option of being a "normal kid" for a year.

Or even making the decision that after the Olympics she'll take a certain amount of time off-- end of story-- will help her get through the horrible period right now.

After the Os. Eight and a half more months... then college fencing.

The Momster

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by Mo

After the Os. Eight and a half more months... then college fencing.

The Momster

Hehehe. I think she should go somewhere with terrible fencing, just to show them all

Like SMITH!!!!!!!!

; )