Loose grip and barrel

[commiemermaid]

One of my epees was purchased (for more than it ought to have been) at a club that shall remain nameless. The main problem I've had with it is that it doesn't seem to have been put together very well. From the start the barrel was loose and the guard shifted relative to the blade. To make a long story short, the guard got so loose that it turned and severed the wires, and the whole thing had to be rewired by my coach (who is awesome and did it for free). I'm assuming that she had to take the whole thing apart to rewire it, but now the grip is loose, as well as the barrel (I've gotten carded for it). Now, I've been told that to fix the loose barrel I just have to get pliers and screw it on more tightly, but I've had little success with that and I'm afraid of forcing it and breaking the wiring again. I also have no idea how to get the grip tighter (it's a pistol grip if that makes any difference). It seems like a stupid question, but could someone give me some tips? I don't even know which direction to turn the barrel to make it tighter!

Thank you!
Angeles

[KD5MDK]

Make sure the lock washer (and just one) is underneath the pommel nut.

[commiemermaid]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Make sure the lock washer (and just one) is underneath the pommel nut.

If that's just a flat round metal thing, it is. The whole thing isn't so much totally loose as it just rattles around a bit when I hold it, which doesn't make a difference in fencing but makes me nervous, you know?

[forethought]

If you have one at hand, a vice is really handy when assembling/doing maintenance work on weapons.

The thing to look for is what kind of pommel nut do you have securing your grip to the tang: the two most common types are the outside and inside hex nuts. The outside hex nut will be hexagonal shaped on the outside of the nut and will require a metric nut driver to tighten it (8mm, if memory serves correct). If it is an inside hex nut, the top portion of the inner bore where the threads are will be hexagonal shaped, and for this you will need a 6mm hex tool.

One thing that will help is if you put a split locking washer in between your grip and the pommel nut, as this will help prevent the nut from coming loose from repeated vibrations along the blade (from beats, parries, etc.).

To tighten the grip, point the weapon tip down and use the appropriate tool as needed for your pommel nut by turning it in a clockwise motion. To loosen the nut (if you need to disassemble your weapon), use the tool to turn the nut counter-clockwise.

Let us know if you require any other help.

[forethought]

Originally Posted by commiemermaid

If that's just a flat round metal thing, it is. The whole thing isn't so much totally loose as it just rattles around a bit when I hold it, which doesn't make a difference in fencing but makes me nervous, you know?

A washer is a flat round metal thing, yes, but a locking washer is a bit different. It is circular, but is split at one point, and either end is sticking up (or down) and is somewhat tapered to a point. What happens is when you put it between the grip and the nut, the tapered points will dig into whatever is on either side of the washer if something turns counter-clockwise, so it makes it harder for the nut to come loose from repeated vibrations along the blade.

You can find them at almost any hardware store for plenty cheap. If you have problems finding them, just ask someone, but they're usually by the regular washers.

[brtech]

You tighten a loose barrel with a wrench, not a pliers. You can purchase the right size wrench, or you can use an adjustable (Crescent) wrench. A metric ignition wrench set usually has what you need, or any fencing supplier carries them. You also need something to hold the blade, for which I recommend another C-wrench. Hpld the blade just under the barrel and put the wrench on the flats. You tighten it pretty tight, but not enough to crack the barrel.

It may be that you already have a cracked barrel, and that is why your barrel loosens up often. It's sometimes hard to spot. You can use a little thread locker, but use the temporary kind, not the permanent kind. I don't use threadlocker.

[commiemermaid]

I'm going to hunt around in my basement for a wrench (my late grandfather was a contractor and we have every tool imaginable down there.) I'll take the guard problem to my coach and ask her to point out which part is which to me, then I'll take yiz (is there a non-local word for "you all" posessive?) advice and have a go at fixing it, and let you know how it goes. Thanks for the explanations.

[Purple Fencer]

The perfect wrench for teh job is a 6mm...you can get one at almost any hardware store that carries metric tools.

[commiemermaid]

Okay, I screwed up.

I found a wrench and tried to tighten the barrel, but I guess I turned in the wrong direction, because before I knew it the barrel was totally off and the wires had broken.

I'm guessing the whole thing will have to be rewired, but knowing little about epee wiring, I'm sitting here hoping there's something I can do to quick-fix it. I'm competing tomorrow and don't have any parts handy (though I do have plenty of tools). If not... well, I'll have one working weapon and one of "undetermined functionality," and I'll have to pray its functionality won't need to be determined.

I'm very disappointed with this weapon. This will be the second time it's had to be rewired in less than a year, while my cheapo Absolute epee (which I got at less than half the cost) has had absolutely no issues in that time. Now, maybe if I knew more about weapon repair I wouldn't be having these issues... but on the other hand, if it had been put together properly in the first place, I wouldn't have been messing with it!

[brtech]

Yep, rewire.

Remember this mantra: "righty-tighty, lefty-loosey". This applies when you are looking directly at the thing you are turning. So, it applies to the barrel when you are turning the barrel relative to the blade. It applies to the socket in a two pin socket from the top. It doesn't apply to the nut at the bottom of the socket if you are looking down from the top. It would apply to the nut if you were looking at the nut from the bottom.

Righty-tighty, lefty loosey. Righty tighty lefty loosey. Righty tighty.....

[fencerbill]

The loose grip doesn't seem to have been addressed.

Presumably, you have tried to tighten the loose grip. Is it that you can tighten it but it soon is loose again?

Or can't you tighten it?

I agree with the advice that you should have ONE lock washer between the grip and the pommel nut. If you have trouble with the grip loosening after you have tightened it, perhaps you should change the split lock washer.

Another trick that is cost effective to try is to use a star lock washer instead of a split ring lock washer. Both inside star and outside star may be effective in getting, and keeping, the grip tight. Try outside star first. All 3 kinds of lock washers, split ring, inside star and outside star, should be available in a good local hardware store. If they don't have metric, try one quarter inch lock washers. However, with some grips, one quarter inch washers may have too large an outside diameter and they won't bottom out in the grip.

If you can securely tighten it but it soon loosens, the threads in the pommel nut may be worn or were cut with a poor die that doesn't have a tight fit. If so, you could change the pommel nut.

If you have a relatively new pommel nut or if you switch a properly behaving pommel nut from another weapon and it still won't stay tight, then you may have a poor set of threads on the tang of the blade. One solution for this is to convert the threads from metric 6 mm x 1 mm pitch to so-called English threads sized 12-24. Dies of 12-24 thread should be available at a good local hardware store. But then you will have to change to 12-24 threaded pommels. American Fencing in San Francisco has, or at least used to have, external hex (same 8 mm external hex wrench) which would fit 12-24 threads. It is a one-way conversion, you can change from 6 mm to 12-24 but you can't change back to 6 mm.

Remember, a pommel is a $3-7 item but a blade is a $50-100 item. Pommels don't often break but blades sure as heaven do break.

Another possibility is that the blade tang has been 12-24 from the start. But this is unlikely because if you had been trying to tighten a metric 6 mm pommel on a 12-24 threaded tang, you could never have gotten it tight in the first place.

Another possibility, when it seems you have tightened the pommel nut as much as you can but the grip is still loose, is the threaded length of the tang is too short, the threads do not go close enough to the blade. You are most likely to encounter this if you use short or small grips. The way to fix this is to cut more threads on the tang. You also have to be very careful if you try to further tighten the pommel nut because you can twist the tang right off the blade.

[finnfence]

I also had the mysterious loose grip thing on a foil where the blade ended wasn't the right angle compared to the belle, and so the belle couldn't lie flat up against the blade when the grip was screwed on, no matter how tight you made it. In the end I had to get a file and change the angle of the blade so that the guard would lie up flat against it. It was only less than a mm, but that solved the whole problem.