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Cyano · 10-24-2007, 04:39 PM

A local coach on occasion gives lessons to two fencers at the same time, holding a foil in either hand. Their reasoning is that it is good for the fencers. Does anyone buy into this? Also should this be considered 1/2 a lesson for purposes of payment? Your comments please....

commiemermaid · 10-24-2007, 05:10 PM

The two-at-once thing sounds weird and like it could get dangerous. On the other hand, I got a couple of double lessons from my coach at Brown Fencing Camp, with a girl who was at about the same level as I am, and it worked out well. He took one at a time while the other watched, then repeated the drill with the other. It was very useful to me because, for one, I didn't get as tired from working constantly; and two, I could watch the other girl and learn from the mistakes she made before trying myself. Now that I'm switching coaches I'd like to see if my new coach would be willing to let me share a lesson like that with a teammate. But... a foil in each hand? I would never agree to that, unless the coach was a genius.

In terms of payment, I'd have the two fencers split the cost of the lesson, or do it like a semiprivate ski lesson and charge slightly more than a half fee. Alternatively, each fencer could pay half of the lesson fee but each give a full tip, which would cover the coach's time appropriately but also compensate for the extra effort involved.

Cookeit · 10-24-2007, 07:31 PM

I would think that since the coach is facing forward, there is less profile making it alot easier for them to hit, and they aren't getting their moneys worth.

But if it is strictly for shoulder hits, I guess it could work, but I wouldn't get them.

qatet · 10-24-2007, 09:09 PM

Since this thread so far consists of people who don't know anything about this kind of lesson, I'll chime in. We do this routinely. It creates a bit of rivalry in the lesson (not wanting to mess up in front of your peer) which can be a very good thing.

If the coach is giving a lesson like this they face straight towards the students, so there's a bit more target area. Still, it forces the students to use tight, controlled motions so as to not get tangled up in the extra weapons.

We also use this in slightly larger groups (my boss will run up to eight kids like this, but prefers 4-6) - having students rotate though the active slots, and ranging out to the sides rather like geese flying south, with the coach as the lead goose (miraculously flying backwards?). This means that the students have a chance to practice the ideas before they reach the active slot, but also have a chance to rest for a moment and regain their concentration and recover their muscles a bit if working a physically demanding drill.

This can also be a good way to chain students - overlapping the beginning of one student's lesson with the end of another's - the cool-down for one is the warm-up for the other.

In terms of billing, if more than one student is working at a time, they are charged full price but the lesson is at least twice as long. The built-in chance to give breaks means that the student's concentration can be renewed during the lesson, meaning that the coach's time is more used more efficiently - they're not standing around waiting for the student to stop shaking out their legs. Most of our pair/group lessons are not entirely made up of two-handed work - there are limits on its usefulness.

For a coach who wants to learn how to give two-handed lessons, a good start can be a pair of boxing practice mitts. Hold the mitt up for the student to hit. It gives you a chance to practice cuing with both hands and watching both students but is a bit less to focus on in terms of your own technique. And, of course, make sure that you practice giving lessons with both hands even when you have only one student in front of you.

erooMynohtnA · 10-24-2007, 11:16 PM

The problem with a dual lesson is that everything has to go right. If a student is doing something wrong, it's not going to work, because the instructor doesn't have the time to correct the student without handicapping the other student's lesson.

So long as everyone does everything correctly, sounds good, right? Wrong. Part of a lesson is making mistakes. If you're doing everything correctly, you're not being challenged and you're not learning anything. At that point it's a warm up or a drill.

It's shows off what a coach can do. It's really cool to be able to give two fencers lessons at the same time. But what I think makes a coach look cooler is the results his fencers get.

qatet · 10-25-2007, 12:58 AM

No, that's really not how it works at all. If somebody makes a mistake, as of course they will, they try to fix it. If they can't get it on their own, the coach's attention shifts for a moment more to that student. And then shifts back when the problem is solved. Both students will make mistakes. Both will learn from each other's mistakes. It's not really a matter of "handicapping" somebody's lesson. In some situations seeing the coach's attention to your partner's mistakes means that you can avoid the same pitfalls without ever introducing them to your own muscles.

I don't know how it works where other people coach and train, but I coach at a serious club, and the students want to get time with the coaches and the coaches' time is limited. Having a chance to work in with somebody else means that you get time at the coaches' plastron when you might not otherwise get to work with the coach at all that night.

It's not a matter of a coach trying to look cool - what does a coach care about how "cool" a lesson looks in the privacy of their own club? It's a matter of using every tool available to get students the best training possible. And, yes, the many years of international-level fencers that my club has put out have all taken _many_ lessons like this. And we think that they look pretty cool when they bring home shiny stuff.

stritti · 10-25-2007, 06:17 AM

As A fencing coach I use the dual lessons sometimes for my students, but only in the kidstraining.
When I get payed for a lesson I give all my focus to the student at the time and that isn t possible in a duallesson.
For the Kids it is sometimes fun to have a duallesson with the best friend and I agree it s then possible to lesson more kids in the same time.
But the quality of a lesson isn t that good so better keep one by one lessons with the coach.

Adler · 10-25-2007, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

T

It's shows off what a coach can do. It's really cool to be able to give two fencers lessons at the same time. But what I think makes a coach look cooler is the results his fencers get.

For the most part I agree however I have seen some top coaches give lessons to more than one person at the same time as an aid to develop their peripheral vision. Personally I would prefer to do this kind of exercise at a lunging pad partly to slow do the rapid decay of my masters jacket and also it make corrections easier.

Durando · 10-25-2007, 08:18 AM

... and not worth taking the time to learn how to give. I think a far more fruitful approach is to give a group lesson (maximum 4) where each fencer rotates through a particular action.

The fencers not doing the action all have a chance to visually model (and to find fault with) their colleagues' actions. It's an excellent method to build team spirit/club solidarity as well. Were I giving lessons in the States, I would certainly offer a group rate. Doing so should reduce the cost for the student while permitting the coach to give more lessons, thereby theoretically improving the level of fencing in his or her club.

Qbranch · 10-25-2007, 02:14 PM

I have had a couple of dual lessons in the past. In each instance the circumstances were a bit unusual. We (myself, another student and our instructor) were using a rented hall and had a limited amount of available time. The exercises were quite basic (simple extensions, 4 and 6 parries with riposte in motion) so it was a concession we were all willing to make during those moments. Still I have not seen it used by the same instructor (or any other instructors from our club) under normal class circumstances.

stritti · 10-26-2007, 03:14 AM

OK I ve seen it also on the WM in Nimes a italian coach gave at the same time with two foils a lessn, but I think that was just for the show in the warming up room, but anyways it looked nice and we had a lot fun arround on the other pists ;-) but at all it was still a one to one

knave · 10-26-2007, 07:43 AM

I was recently talking w/an egyptian saber fencer about dual lessons. His coach gave them and would match up a stronger fencer with a weaker fencer. His goal was to have the weaker fencer feel the rhythm of the stronger fencer as he did the lesson (since both fencers were getting the same cues, side by side). The fencer seemed well taught, so take that for what it's worth.

As a coach myself, I don't think I would give dual lessons (if I knew how, which I don't) for anything beyond very basic bladework skills, almost pure technical stuff. Distance is just too important for my lessons. If the fencers aren't pretty closesly in step, they're not going to be in the same space and I think that would defeat the point of having the assistance of a stronger fencer doing the same action.

Maybe I'm not that good a coach though.

Tripod · 10-26-2007, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyano

A local coach on occasion gives lessons to two fencers at the same time, holding a foil in either hand. Their reasoning is that it is good for the fencers. Does anyone buy into this? Also should this be considered 1/2 a lesson for purposes of payment? Your comments please....

You'd have to be crazy to pay for that experience.

What a rip off!

Duel lessons are for Stallions.

Dual lessons are for monkeys.