Hand position on attack (sabre)

[Platonist]

Hi,

In sabre, if I am pursuing my opponent, I think I have a decent grasp of what the feet should do. But what should my hand be doing? Should my tip be out or blade vertical? When do I want to drop my blade into absence?

Any advice on what to do about bladework on the attack would be welcome. Replying in this thread or by PM is fine. Thank you very much for your time!

[Allen Evans]

What ever your feet are doing, then your hand should be building on that in a way that frustrates your opponent and facilitates your ability to score.

That's the simple answer.

The complete answer would take approximately 100-200 pages to explain.

AE

[AndrewH]

It should be everywhere and nowhere, all at once.

Seriously.

If you hold your blade in one place, it's susceptible to prise de fer. If you always attack from the same hand position, it's easy to parry. When you're out of distance, anything is fair game. I like to hold my hand down by my leg, tip pointing diagonally at the floor. When I get closer (and counterattacks become a concern), I bring it up, feint, move it around to prevent the opponent from finding the blade. The trick is to be able to quickly finish from ANY hand position, in case you get caught in prep.

[Phaeton]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

It should be everywhere and nowhere, all at once.

This is a very dangerous idea if anyone even for a moment takes it seriously. Your hand shouldn't be flailing about randomly. That's just going to make you lose points.

If you hold your blade in one place, it's susceptible to prise de fer. If you always attack from the same hand position, it's easy to parry. When you're out of distance, anything is fair game. I like to hold my hand down by my leg, tip pointing diagonally at the floor. When I get closer (and counterattacks become a concern), I bring it up, feint, move it around to prevent the opponent from finding the blade. The trick is to be able to quickly finish from ANY hand position, in case you get caught in prep.

The general idea works. Once again it's probably best to eliminate all unnecessary hand movements. Keep in mind that your hand has to be angled slightly back when it's in the 7 (???) line so that the blade isn't easily taken as Andrew suggests. Randomly flailing doesn't help.

If you keep your blade down in 7 you can whip it to 3 for a strong sweeping parry, if you miss you can swing it back down to 2 take care of everything low line. Distance has to be right for this, however, because if you think about it your opponent will have leverage if they're lunging toward head. (A well timed 3 parry from 7 should knock out an attack to head). This is fairly easy to figure out and is a once a bout, or perhaps, twice if you're lucky.

I am, however, of a different opinion now-a-days. I prefer being in a solid 3. The blade should be vertical but not forward, and in a central position. There are a few people that have their blade way out in 3 past their left shoulder. That's probably not a good idea. Keeping your hand back isn't going to help. You should have your blade forward enough so you can quickly cut or take a blade, but far enough back that your blade won't be taken. There is a time and a place for feinting, but unless it's a clean action...You shouldn't just flail your blade around. You really should have 3 feints at most.

Ultimately it is a personal thing and coaches differ on opinion. The option above and the one I prefer are really the two major variations, and with good reason. If you walk around with your blade in 4 charging forward, things are not going to end well. For a begginer I recommend my approach. I's a bit easier to do all the parries and cuts from 3 than 2, and it is applicable in a few more situations.

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by Phaeton

This is a very dangerous idea if anyone even for a moment takes it seriously. Your hand shouldn't be flailing about randomly. That's just going to make you lose points.

Not flailing randomly, but your blade should never stay in the some position for more than a moment once you're in distance. Even if you keep it so far back that I can't beat it, I can clearly see your attack starting if you stay in the same position (especially 3) and then it's easy to time the attack in prep or distance parry.

[Phaeton]

I can see someone's attack starting no matter what the hand position is. I don't think that shifting of hand position is to keep people from seeing where you start, but to keep the blade from being beaten. I do, however, agree that if you keep your blade back at a 90 degree angle with your hand...bad things happen.

[randomsabreur]

Keep it as still as possible, tip sufficiently far back that it isn't trailing about to be taken (unless you are deliberately trying to draw an attempted beat, and avoid). En garde position is a good start.

From a referee's perspective, the more you wave your blade around, the more likely it is that the referee will call the attack on the preparation against you.

If you're in distance, you should be well on the way to hitting your opponent. Chasing is best done at long distance, with a close eye on your opponent's intentions, so you can accelerate in to step, step lunge/balestra step lunge when you see them stop.

Under no circumstances should you be "in distance" waving your blade around". If you're in distance it should be going directly towards the target, potentially with a couple of well controlled feints. (Correct distance is much more important that whatever your hand happens to be doing).

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by randomsabreur

Keep it as still as possible, tip sufficiently far back that it isn't trailing about to be taken (unless you are deliberately trying to draw an attempted beat, and avoid). En garde position is a good start.

From a referee's perspective, the more you wave your blade around, the more likely it is that the referee will call the attack on the preparation against you.

If you're in distance, you should be well on the way to hitting your opponent. Chasing is best done at long distance, with a close eye on your opponent's intentions, so you can accelerate in to step, step lunge/balestra step lunge when you see them stop.

Under no circumstances should you be "in distance" waving your blade around". If you're in distance it should be going directly towards the target, potentially with a couple of well controlled feints. (Correct distance is much more important that whatever your hand happens to be doing).

And what is a feint other than waving your blade around? In fact, what is an attack, if it's not that?

Efficiency is great, but you can't always score with a one-two advance lunge off the starting line.

Andrew's advice is good. You don't want a static blade. You want a dynamic blade. Just as you wouldn't want to be caught flat footed, you also don't want to be caught with a immobile blade.

You can't tell me that you'd have a harder time with a fencer holding his blade in an unmoving tierce (or prime, quinte, octave, seconde, whatever), than the same fencer changing his blade position every action or so.

[sheck]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

And what is a feint other than waving your blade around? In fact, what is an attack, if it's not that?

Efficiency is great, but you can't always score with a one-two advance lunge off the starting line.

Andrew's advice is good. You don't want a static blade. You want a dynamic blade. Just as you wouldn't want to be caught flat footed, you also don't want to be caught with a immobile blade.

You can't tell me that you'd have a harder time with a fencer holding his blade in an unmoving tierce (or prime, quinte, octave, seconde, whatever), than the same fencer changing his blade position every action or so.

Nazlymov doesn't teach a lot of blade movement. Kiriyenko is a great example of that style.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by sheck

Nazlymov doesn't teach a lot of blade movement. Kiriyenko is a great example of that style.

I don't know anyone who teaches a lot of blade movement. It just happens, and I'm talking about the reality of competition, not how people train.

[sheck]

As I mentioned Kiriyenko fenced that way to. He didn't use a lot of blade movement.

[bigdawg2121]

Seems like guys like Podz make a lot of blade movements/feints/wiggles. Not sure when Kiriyenko fenced but at higher levels it doesn't take much at all to make a feint.

[sheck]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2121

Seems like guys like Podz make a lot of blade movements/feints/wiggles. Not sure when Kiriyenko fenced but at higher levels it doesn't take much at all to make a feint.

Kiriyenko fenced up to 1996 Olympics. He is from same city/club as Pozdniakov. They have different styles though. Pozdniakov is super dynamic with the blade. Kiriyenko was more static. Not saying he didn't move the blade at all but nothing like Pozdniakov. His later coach was Nazlymov. Kiriyenko was a two or three time individual World Champion, many times WC Team and of course 2 time Olympic Team champion. Great fencer!

[crquack]

If you keep your blade down in 7 you can whip it to 3 for a strong sweeping parry, if you miss you can swing it back down to 2 take care of everything low line. Distance has to be right for this, however, because if you think about it your opponent will have leverage if they're lunging toward head. (A well timed 3 parry from 7 should knock out an attack to head). This is fairly easy to figure out and is a once a bout, or perhaps, twice if you're lucky.

Interesting. I hope I am understanding this right. How do you parry attacks on your 4? Do you go from 7 to 4 or a high 1?

[KD5MDK]

Retreat.

[Phaeton]

Originally Posted by crquack

Interesting. I hope I am understanding this right. How do you parry attacks on your 4? Do you go from 7 to 4 or a high 1?

That's the trick isn't it. That's the one thing I don't like about the 7 line and why I stopped fencing out of it often. I do a mix of both.

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Retreat.

It depends on the moment of the parry:

It is perfectly possible to go from 7 to 4. It is not, however, easy to do or time efficient. If I can step back and get into decent distance I'll swing my blade up into four. If I'm doing the parry riposte going forward from 7 (as I usually do) I usually whip the blade up into a high 1. Parrying 4 from 7 may require a disengage and may have to be further back than most people are comfortable making their parries to compensate for that time. Needless to say, I feel much more comfortable about a solid retreating-and-slightly-back 4 parry than I do about a close 1 quite often. The fact of the matter is I don't think that unless you have lighting fast hands that 4 parry from 7 is possible when closing distance or parry-riposting going forward.

Then again, I don't know. I've only been experimenting with this idea for maybe a year and a half after watching some of Ed Korfante's athletes fence out of low line. I have no idea.

As a side note:
I would what Podz does far from pretty, but it isn't exactly random flailing. his blade stays in the same general place...

[randomsabreur]

If you're at the correct distance, your blade is not vulnerable, no point waving it around (even with purposeful looking feints).

You don't want to be at a distance where your opponent could get your blade for more than 1 or at most two actions.

If you are doing meaningless preparations, while your opponent does none, and you stray too close, if they start an attack on the preparation while you are mid feint/feint parry and hit you before you turn that into an extension, it will be on your preparation. You have much more leeway with a previously stationary/marginally extending blade.

The one situation where continuous feints are useful, is if you think you may end up landing your foot first on your attack, in which case continuous feints will keep priority until your blade is found.

Another disadvantage with feints as an attacker is that even incidental and slight blade contact means that priority will pass to the defender - why take the risk.

I repeat. DISTANCE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING!!!!!!

[sheck]

Originally Posted by randomsabreur

I repeat. DISTANCE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING!!!!!!

This is where Kiriyenko was unbelievable. He could make people miss by a inch. Super control of distance and second intention parry reposte. I have some videos of him so some day I will try get them up on Youtube.

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by randomsabreur

The one situation where continuous feints are useful, is if you think you may end up landing your foot first on your attack, in which case continuous feints will keep priority until your blade is found.

Say what?

[whtouche]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Say what?

I think what randomsabreur is referring to here is the old (since excised) stipulation in the rule book that a sabre attack must land before the foot lands on a lunge, or if feinting, immediately thereafter.

As I mentioned, this passage, to my knowledge, has since been removed from the rule book.

Alot of the stuff I'm seeing on this thread strikes me as faux-academic pseudo-knowledge. Phaeton, are you even a sabre fencer? 7? Parry 1? Really?