Hand position on attack (sabre)

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by randomsabreur

The one situation where continuous feints are useful, is if you think you may end up landing your foot first on your attack, in which case continuous feints will keep priority until your blade is found.

Another disadvantage with feints as an attacker is that even incidental and slight blade contact means that priority will pass to the defender - why take the risk.

I think I am either misunderstanding the above statements or they call saber a bit different where you are. Or I haven't gotten to that chapter yet in the sabernomicon. Any of those are possible I suppose...

How do continuous feints ensure priority? Are you saying that by continually feinting attacks you will take priority after the attack/feint ends before the opponent can gain priority with their own attack or are you saying that as long as you hand keeps moving you have priority?

For the second statement, depending on where there is blade contact, assuming the referee does not figure out that it is indeed incidental and assume it is an action on/against the blade, wouldn't it be just as likely to be considered your beat especially if you are in the right distance for a feint then finish?

Not trying to argue, just confused...

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by whtouche

I think what randomsabreur is referring to here is the old (since excised) stipulation in the rule book that a sabre attack must land before the foot lands on a lunge, or if feinting, immediately thereafter.

As I mentioned, this passage, to my knowledge, has since been removed from the rule book.

As far as I can see, T.75 is still in the rule book:

t.75 (a) Any attack properly executed (cf. t.7) must be parried, or
completely avoided, and the phrase must be followed through.

(b) The attack is correctly carried out when the extending of the
arm, with the point or the cutting edge continuously threatening
the valid target, precedes the initiation of the lunge.

1. An attack with a lunge is correctly carried out:
— in a simple attack (cf. t.8) when the arm is extended with
the lunge and the touch arrives at the latest when the front
foot touches the strip;

— in a compound attack (cf. t.8) when, with the arm
extending in the correct forming of the first feint (cf. t.77),
the touch arrives at the latest when the front foot touches
the strip or immediately afterwards.

[CvilleFencer]

I am not really a saber fencer or coach. As such, this is mostly my own unlearned opinion having watched some videos, talked to a few people and fenced in maybe 4 or 5 saber tourneys in my life... Having said that, to me one thing that jumps out about the fencers in saber who are very successful, regardless of rather they have a lot or a little blade motion in their attacks/feints, is that they are masterful in their awareness of the logical centerline of the cutting/thrusting actions and they rule the distance.

I don't know if I am explaining that very well, but when I see some of the guys with lots of blade work coming in, one thing I notice about the great ones is that they are controlling their blade work so that they can finish their cut/thrust in a rational line with just a simple finger motion. So yeah, it looks like a lot of wild waving but if you pay close attention (and slowing it down helps) they are never more than a few inches away from a logical finish in an optimal attack arc, even if that attack arc is directed in a somewhat non-traditional line or finish.

As to the distance, pretty much self explanatory, but that command of distance and being in the right space allows them to finish their attacks in the most efficient manner, regardless of the amount of blade movement. The distance may change a bit based on lots of little movements or more direct movements as a style, but it is no less integral to the ability of that style to be effective. I guess a short version of that is that their hand and foot tempo complament one another for the style that they are using and allow them to set up their prefered attack. However, it seems to me that the hand/foot tempo equation becomes more complicated if you have a lot of blade movement, pretty much by definition.

Until you have a mastery of different but complementary hand and foot tempo, and a solid concept of the center line of your attack angles, I would say stay away from a lot of random movements as you are likely to just throw off you own hand/foot tempo and take your blade away from logical and efficient finishes to your attacks or leave yourself open to fast stop cuts with a fast change in distance. In other words I think the risk is that you can try so hard to confuse your opponent that you end up confusing yourself.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by whtouche

Alot of the stuff I'm seeing on this thread strikes me as faux-academic pseudo-knowledge. Phaeton, are you even a sabre fencer? 7? Parry 1? Really?

Oh thats saber alright, but it is more classical saber and makes a lot more sense with a bladed weapon than a sport "light saber" that we tend to focus on here in the forum. Also IIRC it is more in line with Spanish and Italian ideas of classical saber. Common Whtouche, don't you ever come on guard inverted, use a handy passe attack when the ref isn't paying attention, counter with a good intagliata against a lefty, wind up a good Moulinet for a cut through or practice your lines of defense in the J pattern?

[sheck]

Originally Posted by whtouche

Alot of the stuff I'm seeing on this thread strikes me as faux-academic pseudo-knowledge. Phaeton, are you even a sabre fencer? 7? Parry 1? Really?

Vitali Nazlymov was my coach and I know the style. I brought up Kiriyenko because he fenced that way and was coached by Vladimir Nazlymov.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by whtouche

I think what randomsabreur is referring to here is the old (since excised) stipulation in the rule book that a sabre attack must land before the foot lands on a lunge, or if feinting, immediately thereafter.

As I mentioned, this passage, to my knowledge, has since been removed from the rule book.

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

As far as I can see, T.75 is still in the rule book:

A motion was submitted to the FIE congress to remove that clause. The FIE Congress will meet November 24-25 in Madrid.

There are dozens of such rules changes submitted each year.

The Refereeing Committee has recommended approval of this motion.

They've also recommended approval of a number of other motions, including:
* Electrification of the bib in foil
* Adding simple corps a corps as a penalty in epee*
* Lots of information related to the proper guard position and abnormal movements including:

Originally Posted by French Proposal

Will be penalised : the flexing of the head, chest, the contortions, which allow the protection with the arms and jumps (yellow card).

Whether or not any of these will meet with approval from the full Congress is anyone's guess.

-B

* It's unclear that this is the intent, rather than removing it as a penalty in foil and sabre. The rationale that states that all corps a corps is intentional from at least one party. Additionally the rationale of difficulty in separating "simple corps a corps" from "corps a corps to avoid a hit" is presented. How this goes away when one is a penalty and the other isn't is unclear to me. The rationales only make sense if the intent of the motion is to expand the penalty for simple corps a corps rather than to remove it.

[randomsabreur]

Cut and paste from FIE Rules issued June 2007...

"75.3 L'attaque par fente est correctement exécutée:
t.75.3.a) pour une "attaque simple" (Cf. t.8.1) quand le bras s'allonge dans le temps de la fente et que le
coup arrive au plus tard quand le pied avant touche la piste;
t.75.3.b) pour une "attaque composée" (Cf. t.8.1) quand le bras s'allongeant dans la présentation correcte
de la première feinte (Cf. t.77.1), le coup arrive au plus tard, quand le pied avant touche la piste ou
immédiatement après."

French version is most authoritative as the English rules are merely a translation.

"immediately after" is interpreted as "while the blade is still moving in a continuous (and apparently premeditated) compound and arm still appears to be extending towards the target". This trumps the "Attack is over when front foot lands" rule, which tends to be given very harshly internationally (over large and heavy steps get given as attack no). Pozdniakov does a lot of these.

Source of interpretation - seminar given by senior (GP List) referee in GB.

As for incidental/accidental blade contact - see t77.2 - the blade merely needs to be found, not deflected, which basically means that any blade contact will be given against the attacker where they are going compound, or what could be seen as compound.

As for who I am - GB top 10 WS, FIE B sabre ref.

[CvilleFencer]

Just to be clear RS, I was not arguing and I had and idea of your credentials before. There are some very different "regional" ways of calling actions, especially in saber, so I genuinely was not clear if I were misunderstanding you or not.

My experience of how this is called on the local US level leads me to think that after the front foot hits the ground the attack is over, hence my confusion. As I understood it, once the foot hits the ground, even on a compound attack where the arm is still continuing forward, ROW is then up for grabs. Now if a fencer continues convincingly, their attack can effectively carry over since they are taking row with a "new" attack. However, it is not a case of "you can keep going until you hit" so much as one attack ended and the other started Really, Really fast. So if there is any hesitation, slowing or pause in the extension, the defender can cut into the action and get the touch. I have also seen a few of these where the attack "ended" with the foot, the fencer continued rather seamlessly but the defender cut when the foot hit the ground and it is still called for the defender.

Saber refereeing confuses me...

[ViewtifulMisho]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

A motion was submitted to the FIE congress to remove that clause. The FIE Congress will meet November 24-25 in Madrid.

Do you have any feeling on how likely it is the motion will pass? That seems like a pretty huge rule change, considering how sabre is fenced (how it will be interpreted/enforced is another question, I guess).

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by ViewtifulMisho

Do you have any feeling on how likely it is the motion will pass? That seems like a pretty huge rule change, considering how sabre is fenced (how it will be interpreted/enforced is another question, I guess).

The clause to be removed is "or immediately after". Removing that should barely affect sabre fencing. Hardly something that could be considered "huge."

I haven't paid enough attention to how often such recommendations are followed and how often ignored, nor do I have any information on prevailing opinions of the various NGBs. So given that almost complete lack of actual information, I'd express an opinion that it's likely to pass. It's a relatively minor change being pushed by the Arbitrage Committee and the EC.

-B

[ViewtifulMisho]

Oh, I thought you were talking about the whole thing. Phew.