foil tip

[Pierfrancesco]

my first armoury question! during a bout today, the tip came out of the barrel but i managed to find it so my fellow fencers suggested i should be able to put it back together again. my weapon fixing skills so far have been limited to tightening the grip so this is a bit of a step up.

from what i've read, i'm pretty sure its a french tip. and it has screws! (damn they're tiny) i thought i had it back together again (after many unsuccessful attempts) but i was twisting the tip and found that it pretty easily screwed right out of the barrel! this, i assume, is bad. from a diagram on stryder's site, i thought it was pretty right, but i'm obviously missing something. is there anyone who can give me a step by step run through on how to assemble the tip? (with pictures would be nice, but hey , words will suffice ). thanks guys

[oiuyt]

The tips don't screw into or out of the barrels.

You put the tip in, then screw the screws through the holes in the barrel into the holes on the side of the tip. The screws should then prevent the tip from being able to be rotated within the barrel.

The other possibility from what you describe is that the top of the tip seperated from the rest of the tip which remained in the barrel. I've always been told that this pretty much means you need to toss the tip and replace although it wouldn't surprise me greatly if they could be reassembled. If that's the case you'd still probably need to remove the bottom portion of the tip from the weapon, reassemble the tip and then reassemble the weapon.

Who here has experience with putting tips back together? Is it possible? Do they end up reliable enough that it's worth the effort? Any tips (pun unintentional) or suggestions?

I guess another interpretation of what you've said is that you've assembled the tip and then by wiggling the tip the screws pop out of the sides of the barrel.

Try describing what's happening again in different wording, maybe that'll help us figure out what's happening.

-B

[Pierfrancesco]

ok.. the tip actually came apart, only the end bit came off but the rest was still in the barrel. so i got all the bits out, and put it back together. but when i twist the end , it will screw right out. the screws in the barrel don't come out. does that help??

i've never assembled a tip before so i have no idea if its right. just did it from what seemed right and a couple of diagrams like this one:



maybe i just need a new tip?

[Purple Fencer]

[quote]Originally posted by Pierfrancesco:
<strong>ok.. the tip actually came apart, only the end bit came off but the rest was still in the barrel. so i got all the bits out, and put it back together. but when i twist the end , it will screw right out. the screws in the barrel don't come out. does that help??

i've never assembled a tip before so i have no idea if its right. just did it from what seemed right and a couple of diagrams like this one:



maybe i just need a new tip?</strong><hr></blockquote>


Ok, I think I see where you're at now. If you use the "end bit" to mean that little flange that comes into contact with the tip, that kinda need to be soldered back on, since it needs to have a solid contact with the center shaft of the tip to complete the electrical connection. If it just snapped on, but still rotates freely around the shaft, you mave have a connection problem.

If you can solder it on (carefully and with a teeny tiny itty bit o' solder), and it works, cool. If not, a new tip is the answer.

[Pierfrancesco]

you mean the bit that the screws go into? it is currently loose. ie it came out along with the spring, the tip end bit (what is that called? 1 on the diagram) and the bit that goes on the end of that which goes against the spring.

i don't have a soldering iron so it will be easier to get a new tip i think.

[Purple Fencer]

[quote]Originally posted by Pierfrancesco:
<strong>you mean the bit that the screws go into? it is currently loose. ie it came out along with the spring, the tip end bit (what is that called? 1 on the diagram) and the bit that goes on the end of that which goes against the spring.

i don't have a soldering iron so it will be easier to get a new tip i think.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Opps! My bad! I meant to say the flange that comes into contact with the SPRING! Doh!

The little collar where the screws go is SUPPOSED to be free-floating. When the tip's at rest (anything except being depressed, that is...quick! get that tip some Prozac!), that collar completes the power path from the wire to the spring to the flange to the collar to the screws (because the screws are ALWAYS in contact with the collar) and back down the blade. When the tip is depressed - and because that collar is being held in place by the screws - that pathway is broken and power either stops entirely (for an off-target), goes directly to ground (does not pass Go or get $200) in the case of a bell guard or copper strip hit and thus bypasses the lights entirely, or it goes from the wire to the spring to the flange to the TIP to the other lame and out the back side to complete the circuit and trigger the target lights. The pathway's th same regardless of tip design.

And why can someone lose a tip and have no reaction from the box? My best guess is this:

1) flange breaks or otherwise separates from the tip.

2) Spring shoots tip forward and tip flies across the room, never to be seen again.

3) Because flange is slightly larger than the collar, rest circuit is still established. However, there's no way to break the circuit and register a touch since the tip took the red eye across the venue.

This is why I got in the habit of spinning my foil tip between each action. 1) if any corrosion came up, spinning the tip might brewak it free and keep the circuit intact and 2) I won;t go through half a DE and not realize my tip aint there...seen it happen!

[Pierfrancesco]

[quote]Originally posted by Purple Fencer:
<strong>Opps! My bad! I meant to say the flange that comes into contact with the SPRING! Doh!</strong><hr></blockquote>

ok i've got the tip in my hand. the bit that comes into contact with the spring seems to just screw on to the end. this is obviously what came unscrewed when i twisted the tip. so this needs to be soldered to the tip itself?

i think i follow how the circuit works..

[quote]<strong>And why can someone lose a tip and have no reaction from the box? My best guess is this:

1) flange breaks or otherwise separates from the tip.

2) Spring shoots tip forward and tip flies across the room, never to be seen again.

3) Because flange is slightly larger than the collar, rest circuit is still established. However, there's no way to break the circuit and register a touch since the tip took the red eye across the venue.</strong><hr></blockquote>

this is exactly what happened to me. the ref picked it up, i thought i was hitting flat or something. the tip went flying off but someone with a keen eye found it.

[quote]<strong>This is why I got in the habit of spinning my foil tip between each action. 1) if any corrosion came up, spinning the tip might brewak it free and keep the circuit intact and 2) I won;t go through half a DE and not realize my tip aint there...seen it happen!</strong><hr></blockquote>

yeah, it had to happen during a competition! luckily it was my last bout. i had to make do with a right handed (i'm a lefty) french grip foil. every time my opponent parried the foil nearly came out of my hand!! so yeah i'll be checking it more frequently now. i normally do, but not often enough i guess .

[ 04-07-2002: Message edited by: Pierfrancesco ]</p>

[sallearmourer]

Replace the tip but before you do tap the end of it to set the flange were this does happen again. This is a common problem in a french tip. But it starting to become a problem with the german as well. the reason why the machine didn't pick up on you losing your tip is the flange was being held in place by the screws and therefore the spring as well the circuirt was showing good.

Tim

[Pierfrancesco]

new tip has done the trick. but i should be able to fix the old one - all it need is a bit of something to hold the flange on the end. solder? any glue or something i could use?

[Pierfrancesco]

i FINALLY get how the scoring and electrical circuit business works! it's like a light has gone off in my head (accompanied by a buzz)
now taping the end of a foil makes a bit more sense - if the tip was depressed against the lamé and the blade flexed and hit the lamé as well there would be a short right? hmm..maybe that one needs a bit more explanation ..

[Rick_L]

Here's a URL that's really helped me understand how the foil works:

<a href="http://www.scc.iastate.edu/fencing/workbench/" target="_blank">http://www.scc.iastate.edu/fencing/workbench/</a>

Regards,
Rick_L

[Pierfrancesco]

the tip saga continues.

replaced with my old tip with another used tip. this one caused intermittent white lights, ONLY when the tip is depressed. when i touch the strip, white light. most of the time when i touched the opponents lamé it would register the touch, sometimes off target. to begin with it was consistently off target, then it seemed to come good.

what would cause this? bad connection between the shaft and flange of the tip?

[oiuyt]

Some insulation on the tip of the tip (the flat surface that you're intending to hit with) would cause this.

-B