How much damage could this kid do? Sorta long

[TexasLady]

Alrighty, I figure this might generate something interesting.

So Friday I had a bit of a new experience. I was fencing a kid perhaps 10 or 12 yo who is only a head and shorter than I am, but probably weighs close to me (about 125). Every so often he would charge me. I do mean charge. He would hold his foil straight out in front of him and run at me full tilt. (It put me in the mind of a knight jousting.) I waited until he had pretty much fetched right up against me and stopped moving forwards before touching him. I really didn't want to risk hurting him (and I can't afford a new foil if mine breaks.)

It was the first time in fencing that my primative brain was telling me "DANGER! DANGER!"

It also got me to wondering: how much damage could he have done if I hadn't parried? Guesses, conjectures, hypotheses?

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by TexasLady

It also got me to wondering: how much damage could he have done if I hadn't parried? Guesses, conjectures, hypotheses?

He could have broken his blade, penetrated your mask or uniform, and killed you.

What would have happened? A bruise.

[RkfdFencer]

I saw similar behavior at a beginners foil event. The charging fencer would actually lower his shoulder as he came forward and would run into his opponent (one of whom had to be held back when he got up off the floor).

Who coaches people to do this?!? Is there actually a coach you can mention it to so that the behavior can be corrected?

[mrbiggs]

I had a guy in a tournament once who, no matter what happened, would charge at me. Before the hit, after the hit, during the hit, full charge.

I won the bout easily, but he really messed up my blade. Usually I go over the back in situations like that, but he was good enough to defend against back hits. I had no choice but to hit him as he ran forward, bending my blade further and further.

It was very frustrating.

In a club situation, you can try going over the back, you can try keeping distance, you can tell him that he might want to slow down sometimes, or you can just not fence him.

[Got_Fenced_In]

Sounds to me like he's doing one of the the typical beginner things, which are:

a) Parrying down like mad, from lack of knowledge of better things to do.

b) Charging at you like a knight, from lack of knowledge of better things to do.

c) Moving really slow and flinching when ever you attack, but not trying to stop/parry you, from lack of knowledge of better things to do.

So either you can avoid fencing him, out of fear (but honestly, you shouldn't fear a newbie) or you could point out a few good techniques to him that may help him become a better and/or less dangerous fencer. Haha.

But no, seriously, I've dealt with this before. It IS frustrating. New people with no technique whatsoever, and yet they're so aggressive it's almost hard to scroe touches on them.

[AdamH]

It can be frustrating if you have spent an evening practicing your technique and find someone who is doing something so simple in a bout can cause you trouble.

Last year, my non-fencing flatmate was subjected to a fencing DVD. We watched the Italian Sanzo bounce-dominate-bounce a Chinese fencer, Zhang.

My friend then came to our adult beginner's class, that night, and in steam foil proceeded to imitate Mr Sanzo and put a pretty good run through the other fencers, frustrating quite a few who thought they ought to have won their bouts.

The year before, at our club Christmas competition, a lovely Australian who was a semi-professional boxer, did the same thing. Mixing up lots of stophits and attacks on preparation; in-out-in-hit.. Excellent distance and timing.

At the recent Edinburgh Alternative Triathlon (ask Gav), my club's team gave a chess-playing, strong-drinking Aussie one night with an epee and we took home the team trophy.

When I went 'dahn saf' to some of the big UK tournaments I was warned, "Adam, forget the guys that are really good, but watch out for those that are pretty good - you'll find people that just run at you." True.

In the 1999 world championships final between Golubitsky and Zannaro, the Italian Zannaro launches himself again and again after every halt, at Golubitsky. The same could be seen in the 2003 final between Vanni and Joppich, this time -both- fencers charging right in, halt, en guarde, charge.

I suppose, in short, that while it's great to be practicing bladework and footwork, the real test is always, 'can you use this to score a touch in the right place at the right time.'

There are several articles in these forums on the warrior vs. technician beginner mentalities. The summary being that warriors will see more immediate gains in terms of victory, while the technician may take longer to mature.

Both aspects are probably required in any fencer. But always remember that simple actions performed at the right time and distance are just as valid as any sort of 'true fencing', if the objective is to score points.

Every action becomes null and void 'at a certain level' if actioned repeatedly. I would be grateful you have a caveman to practice with, it will be helpful in the short and long term.

Also, if a fight can be finished and won in 20 seconds with a particular action, why on earth, if you are looking to win, would you let it last longer

edit: For clarification, all the above, with the exception of the Alternative triathlon, is specifically foil.

[Mergs]

I had a very similar occurrance during my early days of fencing. I finally had enough and when the inevitable attack came, I planted my feet, parried down (as has been suggested), lowered my weapon shoulder and assumed my best Dick Butkus stance (stop giggling, those of you who know my stature!) and let the little b*****d run into me. Granted I was a few pounds heavier, but the result was the same, I was standing, he was on his a** and got the caution (yes, caution, not yellow card, which gives those of us of an age some idea of how long ago this was!) for corps-a-corps. Fortunately, he got the message, because the next time he was going to get a forearm across the side of the head!

DO NOT LET THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR PERSIST, HOWEVER YOU CAN STOP IT.

[Gav]

To be honest the chances of injury are slim. Not something I would worry about. I'd also not worry about losing the foil - it's not something you can predict either. You'll have to get a new one sooner or later anyway.

Quite why you want to avoid hurting him to the extent that you feel hesitant is beyond me (I get this impression from reading your opener).

He's chosen to fence with the "big boys".
He's bullying you (again assuming the hesitancy implied in your post).
He's chosen this tactic.
You may have to face this situation competitively.

Therefore you have a few options:

You can let this tactic continue to faze you (it would be a weakness in your game).
You can learn to deal with

Assuming you want to deal with it (and if not why not?)

Tactically you have lots of options: you can hit while stepping aside; you can stop hit and retreat; you can attack in; you can parry and ripost etc. What you do really depends on the circumstances (what you are comfiortable with) when you call your shot.

However I would say that the most important thing is not to allow the oddness of the move to throw you out. By making you second guess yourself this fencer has closed your game and has won himself a psychological victory. There's no need for you to inflict a brutal hit on him. Nor is there any need for you to tolerate it. What you need to do is to think through the action and have your plan sorted for when it re-occurs. If you're ready you'll beat it. This kid will be at the start of his fencing career. Eventually he will stop 'charging' (when he realises the futility of it) and you will have learned a new plan for your future game.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Mergs

I had a very similar occurrance during my early days of fencing. I finally had enough and when the inevitable attack came, I planted my feet, parried down (as has been suggested), lowered my weapon shoulder and assumed my best Dick Butkus stance (stop giggling, those of you who know my stature!) and let the little b*****d run into me. Granted I was a few pounds heavier, but the result was the same, I was standing, he was on his a** and got the caution (yes, caution, not yellow card, which gives those of us of an age some idea of how long ago this was!) for corps-a-corps. Fortunately, he got the message, because the next time he was going to get a forearm across the side of the head!

DO NOT LET THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR PERSIST, HOWEVER YOU CAN STOP IT.

I would use that method as a last resort, if at all, in a club bout.

Even though it might be his fault if one of you gets hurt, someone still gets hurt, and it's not worth the risk during a friendly bout. A talk with the kid or, better, with his coach, is a safer and possibly more effective way to end the behavior.

(That said, in a tournament, I'd do exactly as Mergs did. There's no real way to ask nicely for them to stop, and most likely no one will get hurt as my opponent racks up penalties.)

[TexasLady]

Thanks all!

I appreciate knowing that you see it in competition too. Maybe I should thank my partner for desensitizing me to something so bizzare. The first time 'round it was really suprising. By the tenth, it was just annoying.

I guess the nice thing about the long run is that I have the time to decide what I want to do.

The thing is, he really doesn't need to charge me since he has good technique when he is thinking about it. And it's not like I have a massive amount of knowledge to get around him every time.

I am going to talk with our coach this week. I tried talking with the kid, but he kept getting back to his old habits, and I get bored easily.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by Mergs

Fortunately, he got the message, because the next time he was going to get a forearm across the side of the head!

DO NOT LET THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR PERSIST, HOWEVER YOU CAN STOP IT.

Everyone has a story like this, and probably, many of us who are bigger than a charging opponent have stood our grounds and "let" the corps-a-corps happen. However, if the referee thinks you are intentionally dropping your shoulder, or "accidently" striking your opponent in some fashion when the corps-a-corps happens, the referee would have EVERY right to penalize you as well -- up to and including throwing a black card for unsportsmanlike conduct.

This is a combat sport, true, but it is not hand to hand combat. I'm not sure that stopping this behavior by any means includes actions that might injure an opponent.

AE

[uhl-mann]

I guess it's really common to do that. Just yesterday I was fencing a guy who would do a charge/fleche at me. At first I could not think what to do (2 year fencer talking) but I had a brain fart. I fenced him again and just stuck my foil out and he would run into it. Also I ducked a lot. It was really different.