10-20-2007, 11:58 AM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007 Location: Spain
Posts: 150
| If feints donīt work
If against a particular fencer the feints you do do not work,what strategy would you use? | 
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10-20-2007, 12:11 PM
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#2 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,634
| If a feint isn't working, why isn't it working? Is the opponent failing to parry? Or is the opponent parrying the final attack?
Or?
AE | |
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10-20-2007, 02:34 PM
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#3 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: May 2000 Location: The valley of the -hot- sun, NorCal
Posts: 3,184
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos37  If against a particular fencer the feints you do do not work,what strategy would you use? | "Doctor, it hurts when I do that, what should I do?"
"Stop doing it".
Seriously, if your feints don't work, either your opponent isn't buying them, so you need to make them more visible, or your opponent is much faster and responds faster than you can, in which case you need to try for single tempo actions.
__________________ - Epee is the Louis Vuitton bag of fencing: only the best can get it, and the rest of the masses must content themselves with cheap knockoffs (sabre, foil)
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10-20-2007, 02:57 PM
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#4 | | Super Shoebie
Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: VA
Posts: 1,083
| If you can, make the original action an attack and wait for the parry. No parry=touch, parry=deceive. I just wish I could follow my own advice more often... | |
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10-20-2007, 03:57 PM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: South Carolina über Alles
Posts: 2,608
| If your opponent doesn't believe your feints and isn't parrying, use that against him. Sneak into distance and give him what looks like a feint, but finish with a straight attack.
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10-20-2007, 06:40 PM
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#6 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007 Location: Spain
Posts: 150
| the problem I have is that he doesnīt buy feints easily... | |
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10-20-2007, 06:42 PM
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#7 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: IU Bloomington
Posts: 513
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos37 the problem I have is that he doesnīt buy feints easily... | Be more aggressive.
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10-20-2007, 07:26 PM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Kirkland, WA
Posts: 851
| If your opponent is significantly better than you (more experienced, faster, cleaner, better timing, etc.) then to some extent you have to guess. If you threaten 4 and she/he's quick/good enough to parry it very late, then anticipate the 4 parry and disengage as late as you can. If you guess right, then you get a touch. If you guess wrong, you get hit. But now that it's a coin flip, that's not bad when fencing someone that's significantly better. Even if you don't hit, you have a better shot at your opponent biting on the feint.
If you're opponent isn't way better than you, then you're overcomplicating things. | |
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10-20-2007, 11:18 PM
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#9 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,680
| When feint-disengage isn't working for me against a particular opponent, I usually try setting up counter-riposte.
-p | |
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10-21-2007, 10:02 AM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 542
| Quote:
Originally Posted by veeco Seriously, if your feints don't work, either your opponent isn't buying them ... or your opponent is much faster and responds faster than you can ... | OR he's "stubborn" (oblivious), and isn't going to respond to anything you do anyway. | |
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10-21-2007, 10:22 AM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007 Location: Spain
Posts: 150
| it happens that my opponent is better than me since heīs got two more years than me of fencing,but in the speed department Iīm way faster... | |
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10-21-2007, 10:30 AM
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#12 | | Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Scotland
Posts: 4,621
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos37 If against a particular fencer the feints you do do not work,what strategy would you use? | Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos37 the problem I have is that he doesnīt buy feints easily... | 2 things spring to mind.
1. This is an element of fencing you will have to face regularly.
2. Therefore there is no point in asking how to improve your feint for a particular person.
Like AE says ask yourself why the feint isn't working. Do other people buy your feint?
Ask yourself why this guy doesn't fall for your feint - does he buy anyone's feints?
The answers to these questions should in fact tell you what you need to know*.
If no-one is buying your feints then there is a problem with them. Get practising and ask your coach what he thinks is wrong with them.
If this guy doesn't buy anyone's feints (and there are fencers out there like this) then ask why. I come across it with overly passive fencers (I hate fencing them) however the answer is quite simple. If your point is in the right place, if he is not reacting, then hit him. You need to convince him that if he does nothing about your 1st intention then he will lose a point.
After that 2nd intention becomes much easier. * Chances are that your feint is actually terrible and lacks conviction precisely because you are intending to hit him with your 2nd intention. This is the wrong way to approach a feint. | |
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10-21-2007, 10:34 AM
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#13 | | Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Scotland
Posts: 4,621
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos37 it happens that my opponent is better than me since heīs got two more years than me of fencing,but in the speed department Iīm way faster... | Speed isn't everything. Some people are slow, out of shape, and have terrible technique... yet they win. Why? Because they fence smart.
Speed is no indicator of anything... ok it is, but it doesn't indicate anything other than your ability to move fast. You need to use your head as well. | |
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10-21-2007, 11:00 AM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005 Location: Over there -->
Posts: 3,873
| What I do when someone refuses to respond to a feint? If the feint is in-out, go in and hit them! They'll be surprised that you hit them and might even start to respond to the feints. | |
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10-21-2007, 12:03 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 1,003
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos37 the problem I have is that he doesnīt buy feints easily... | "Sell" the feint. If you want your feints noticed, there is nothing quite so convincing as a few well timed, well earned, direct attacks that hit before he can parry. You must give your opponant some "history" in order to sell the feint. If you start out indirect, he has no reason to believe the feint.
If you nail the opponant with a couple quick lunges, fleches, etc., they will think much more about defense and tend to look for the blade more. This will not work if your opponant is oblivious.
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10-21-2007, 04:42 PM
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#16 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,634
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos37 .....but in the speed department Iīm way faster... | I think you've discovered the source of your problem.....
AE | |
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10-21-2007, 08:34 PM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,059
| I've realized over the last three years I've been fencing that speed is secondary to acceleration. You can be the fastest guy there is, but if you're fast all the time your speed counts for nothing. Acceleration is what makes actions look fast to your opponent. If you're linearly fast all the time...it's easy to tell where you're going to be at. Also...prepare to fast and you're screwed. I think this is a case of that.
You've probably got to slow down your preparation so the other person can actually see and believe your feint. After you've slowed down your prep and made the feint, then you can finish with acceleration.
This if course comes from the perception of a sabreur, but with all the epee I've watched I'd probably say that acceleration is more important than epee in sabre, and that is saying something. | |
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10-21-2007, 10:28 PM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,537
| Don't feint.
I can't comment on your skill level, but it sounds like you need to be focused on much more basic actions.
People overestimate the utility of complex actions, and underestimate the utility of the simple ones.
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Last edited by D+F+P=Hadouken!; 10-21-2007 at 10:37 PM.
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10-21-2007, 11:30 PM
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#19 | | The Judge
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,308
| if a feint fails to draw a response, hit with it.
a feint should only actually be a feint if it draws a response. if they don't respond, then just hit them.
if you're making a feint in such a way that it has no chance to hit, its not really a feint because it won't draw a response. | |
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10-22-2007, 10:35 AM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,285
| Do you ever hit or attempt to hit this particular opponent with a direct attack? Your opponents will only respond your feint if they believe that you might actually attack with it - so every now and again you have to keep your opponent honest with a direct attack. If this is someone you fence regularly, he knows your style and is not buying what you are selling because he knows its a bluff. | |
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