I love seeing parents 'involved' in fencing with their kids, but this guy is crazy.

[Got_Fenced_In]

At one point, during one of my brother's fencing classes, our coach needed volunteers to judge the bouts for the kids. So it was me, and a couple of parents. This one guy, had a son who was about eight. The kid had been fencing a couple of years, but the father had no idea whatsoever how to judge. I overheard him judging a bout between his son and my brother. He explained to my brother that he was giving all of the touches to his son because 'well, you were crouching down too low on your attacks so it doesn't count and he gets the touches.' And it isn't the only time this has happened, either. I swear, the guy has a tendency to constantly make things up or something.

I realize this could almost be considered off topic. Sorry. But I'd like to know how everyone here thinks I could tell this guy he's screwing up. Because, well, I'm much younger than him, and I hate to 'disrespect' him, but.. He's really clueless. 'Nuff said

So. Opinions?

[Goldgar]

But I'd like to know how everyone here thinks I could tell this guy he's screwing up.

Tell him, "Since you're really getting into refereeing, why don't you take a referee seminar?"

[Got_Fenced_In]

Bwahaha, I like the way you think. That's absolutely wonderful. I doubt he'd listen to anything they teaught him, though. I bet it'd go in on eear and out the other. Like I said, I think he enjoys making stuff up.

Worth a try though.

[KD5MDK]

There's a reason you have to pass a strict written test and a practical observation AFTER the seminar.

[Taomagicdragon]

If that's the case then I doubt he'd pass the exam after :-P

[Got_Fenced_In]

Oh, no, he's probably fail.

But maybe he'd go home with his ego hurt and realize, 'wow, I'm really NOT all that'.

The biggest reason it's bad, though, is for his kid. He's very used to winning at the club. And the few times he's been to a tournament, he's gotten very disappointed because, whoa, guess what, none of the judges judge like dad. And of course it's frustrating for my brother. Losing to him all the time when he knows they're his touches.

[Warrior Princess]

Or you could just hand him a copy of the rule book. I'm going to do that to this one director in my div. (and hilight the part that he keeps ignoring).

[Got_Fenced_In]

So do you carry a copy with you? Because I've got a few judges like that, too. And whenever I know they're wrong, there's never anyone around to back me up or hand 'em The Book. And I don't even own a copy.

[Warrior Princess]

So do you carry a copy with you? Because I've got a few judges like that, too. And whenever I know they're wrong, there's never anyone around to back me up or hand 'em The Book. And I don't even own a copy.

No, I don't carry a copy, but I've got two (the most recent one and the one before that). I'm going to print out another copy and give that to him. It's a director that I've had a couple of times that consistently does the same thing wrong. You could also e-mail him the link and say that if he's going to direct, he should know it. Who cares if you're younger? You obviously know more than he does. Chew him out. It's not just your brother you're helping, or even his son. He's embarasing himself, and he's breaking the rules.

[SJCFU#2]

You can buy a copy from most vendors, if you like.

Or you could simply downloading a copy from the USFA website for free (click here and scroll down the page)

[epeeforlife]

Go to the coach! Does he not see what is going on? You could tell your brother to challenge the call and ask for the coach to clarify the ruling of the call being made. Basically, just cause trouble until the problem is solved. That always works for me!

[SJCFU#2]

The other person you might consider getting involved would be your coach.

The father may not listen to him any more than you, but at least the son might notice when his coach says that what his father is saying isn't right.

[pokey]

He explained to my brother that he was giving all of the touches to his son because 'well, you were crouching down too low on your attacks so it doesn't count and he gets the touches.'

Wow. That's worse than just flipping a coin to decide double touches. At least that's randomly erroneous/incompetent directing. The described situation is just blatantly favoring one fencer over the other.

[annacattiva]

I think that in your interactions with this guy (as in your interactions with your refs) you need to make sure that you're not just acting out of a desire to show him how stupid and wrong he is, but out of a desire to genuinely make things better for everyone. Handing a ref a copy of the rulebook when you disagree with them is disrespectful and not likely to win you style points. Similarly, any way that you approach this parent that isn't in a constructive, friendly, helpful vein isn't going to work out very well. I would recommend, as several others have, that you talk to your coach about it. If he hasn't noticed, just mention to him that you're having trouble with this parent's calls, and could he check it out? It's his job to make sure that his classes are going smoothly, that his students are learning to fence right, and that the fencing is being judged correctly. It's also in his interest to make sure that his students aren't frustrated, and right now it sounds like everyone is frustrated somehow except this parent.

In the meantime, tell your brother to work on single light touches.

Anna

Edited to add: incidentally, he's not "crazy": it sounds like he's just "wrong".

[Got_Fenced_In]

Similarly, any way that you approach this parent that isn't in a constructive, friendly, helpful vein isn't going to work out very well.

Exactly. I obviously wouldn't just 'hand him a rulebook', I just thought that was funny. Nor would I be a big pain in the butt to him, because while that may work, it is disrespecting an adult.

[Allen Evans]

Why are 8 year olds in referee'd and scored bouts? Why aren't they just fencing to fence?

AE

[Got_Fenced_In]

I'm going to print out another copy and give that to him. It's a director that I've had a couple of times that consistently does the same thing wrong.

Yeah, but be careful, because like Anna was saying, it'll probably just make him embarrassed and upset and that you're a very disrespectful fencer. It might just make him more likely to favor someone over you. I've had that happen before. At some tournament, the guy who was judging all of my bouts was from the same club as several of the kids. He favored a little. And when I questioned his calls, he got severely PO'ed and wouldn't answer me from then on. Certain judges have this 'I-am-a-ref-therefore-I-am-MUCH-better-than-you' thing going on. Not all of them, but some. So maybe you should go to one of HIS superiors.

[Got_Fenced_In]

Eh, I dont know if his son is actually eight. I said about eight. Probably eight or ten.

My brother is 11. And there are kids who are twelve and 13 in his class as well.

[Soberin]

Why are 8 year olds in referee'd and scored bouts? Why aren't they just fencing to fence?

AE

Because unfortunately, there are now some club events that feature a Y8 category, although with the disclaimer that it is not an official USFA youth age group. I'm sure I saw one of FRED somewhere. Isn't that nuts?

[tlucente]

The real question is why would you expect a parent who's never fenced before, even if they've watched their kid fence for 2 years, to know how to correctly Referee a bout? I know good, C and above, fencers who are clueless and bad Referees. This guy might actually think there are "style" considerations when awarding a touch. I can imagine the horrified look some of the parents at our Club would have if I expected them to Referee.

A 15-30 minute mini-seminar with the Coach or other qualified Referee would help alot...but at their age it should be more about getting bout experience.