Touch registration problems Leon Paul foil lame

[ckibert]

I seem to be finding a pattern emerging when I fence against club members using the ultralightweight Leon Paul foil lames. Direct hits which would be valid against a conventional lame seem to have a much higher probability of not registering on one of these very flat and smooth lames. Initially I thought it had to do with the slippery surface, but after some obvious direct hits on my coach, who had just purchased one of these relatively new products, even he had to agree that something was very different. I am interested in hearing if anyone has experienced this phenomenon. Again, I have had this exact same thing happen with three different fencers in my club who are using this type of equipment. Thanks!

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Originally Posted by ckibert

I seem to be finding a pattern emerging when I fence against club members using the ultralightweight Leon Paul foil lames. Direct hits which would be valid against a conventional lame seem to have a much higher probability of not registering on one of these very flat and smooth lames. Initially I thought it had to do with the slippery surface, but after some obvious direct hits on my coach, who had just purchased one of these relatively new products, even he had to agree that something was very different. I am interested in hearing if anyone has experienced this phenomenon. Again, I have had this exact same thing happen with three different fencers in my club who are using this type of equipment. Thanks!

I assume you're not saying that the touches are registering "white"...instead they are registering NOTHING. Well, I know a bunch of foil fencers who will be joining a WAITING LIST to buy LP lames.

[HDG]

My sweet, new LP lightweight has not protected me from any hits. Maybe I didn't get the "special" model...

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by ckibert

I seem to be finding a pattern emerging when I fence against club members using the ultralightweight Leon Paul foil lames. Direct hits which would be valid against a conventional lame seem to have a much higher probability of not registering on one of these very flat and smooth lames. Initially I thought it had to do with the slippery surface, but after some obvious direct hits on my coach, who had just purchased one of these relatively new products, even he had to agree that something was very different. I am interested in hearing if anyone has experienced this phenomenon. Again, I have had this exact same thing happen with three different fencers in my club who are using this type of equipment. Thanks!

It's not the lamé. I've heard several fencers diagnose a lamé as bad because hits on it don't register a light. This isn't actually possible in terms of circuitry. (I don't think this is what you're saying, but I feel I might as well go over the common misconception.)

It is possible that the material is somehow reacting differently to your hit. As you said, it's a slippery surface, so are there only glancing hits that are not registering?

If they are direct hits, then you should make sure you have enough tape on the tip of your foil. This is just a guess, but a more flexible material might fold more than you are used to on a hit and wind up grounding out against your barrel where old lamés did not. Retape your foil, making sure that the tape covers the entirety of the barrel, and see if your problem improves.

If none of this helps, you might want to start checking for intermittent shorts in your blade and bodycord.

[the ancient one]

I imagine that if the foil point is not well insulated around the barrel (base in the UK) a thin flexible material might more easily short out the tip and prevent the circuit from opening.

Just a guess.

[CvilleFencer]

A glancing hit will slide off them and the points are a little less likely to "stick" on any of the lightweight lames by any vendor. What is probably happening is that the point is sliding or skipping and is causing a "micro break" in the debounce time. Thats not the fault of the lames, which really are not that new, thats the fault of the new timings and to a lesser extent the way fencers are hitting. If you really want some fun, add a rigid chest plate to the mix! Also as has been suggested, make sure your barrel is properly insulated as this will exacerbate the problem. Or fence epee, a solution I strongly recommend for fencing most of the common annoyances of foil.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by ckibert

I seem to be finding a pattern emerging when I fence against club members using the ultralightweight Leon Paul foil lames. Direct hits which would be valid against a conventional lame seem to have a much higher probability of not registering on one of these very flat and smooth lames. Initially I thought it had to do with the slippery surface, but after some obvious direct hits on my coach, who had just purchased one of these relatively new products, even he had to agree that something was very different. I am interested in hearing if anyone has experienced this phenomenon. Again, I have had this exact same thing happen with three different fencers in my club who are using this type of equipment. Thanks!

I think you should review your technique of making touches.

I have heard people refer to LP lames as ultra-slick, but I have never noticed anyone in them is harder to hit. I have an LP ultra light and a conventional lame, and I have never noticed that I am easier or harder to hit in either.

[ckibert]

Thanks for all your replies. A couple of clarifications:

1. The experience I am having is that there is no touch registration at all, valid or invalid, and the no touch occurs at a frequency of about 1 in 5 touches.

2. I am careful about the tape on my foil tips and recognize the problem of shorting out a touch when the metal barrel touches the lame as the point is depressing.

3. Most often the touches are direct hits and not flicks or quick shots or sideways glances. I fence in a very direct classical style and focus on direct solid touches.

4. I have tried switching weapons to be sure there was not some other equipment malfunction and still had the same frequency of non-touches.

Since I made the original post I have fenced several times with my coach (we are both Masters fencers with extensive experience), we have had the same experience time and again. As I noted earlier, I have had the same results with two younger fencers, both brothers, one an A-rated epee fencer who also likes to challenge me to foil bouts.

One aside of this, a positive one, is that I don't stop fencing when I think I have a sure touch, I continue until the bout is halted by the referee or the noise from the box.

Again, thanks for the posts, I will continue to look at this odd situation and see what else I can learn.

Best Regards to All,

Charles

[FoilyDeath]

Frankly, the only way that an LP jacket would be in any way more difficult to hit would be due to your barrel not being insulated. Frankly however, it sounds like your just getting screwed over by the not-quite-so-new timings. What usually happens is that people rush in to fast for the hit to register...trying keeping better distance.
An LP lame really shouldn't make any difference. I use an ultralight, and I have never noticed any hits not coming on against me.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Beloit Fencer of Old

I assume you're not saying that the touches are registering "white"...instead they are registering NOTHING. Well, I know a bunch of foil fencers who will be joining a WAITING LIST to buy LP lames.

Are they the same ones who just finished paying off their chest protectors?

[Sboard1019]

I recently bought the Ultra lite LP lame and i have to say it works just fine, i even put it on a dummy to see if i could recreate the problem ckibert claims to be having. This lame definitely works perfectly fine. In fact it is my favorite i have ever seen or owned.

ckibert... have you done the same? Maybe you should start doing some controlled tests find out where the problem is.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by ckibert

4. I have tried switching weapons to be sure there was not some other equipment malfunction and still had the same frequency of non-touches.

Have you tried switching body cords? Given the way the electronics work, I can't think of any way this could be the fault of the lamé.

[D'Art]

Try cleaning out the inside of your barrel with a cotton bud. There may be some crud in there which stops a light coming up. And put me into the "it's not the lame" camp....

[finnfence]

We've been having a similar problem with a new Allstar lame of the normal type. No clue what causes it. Sometimes it's fine, and sometimes it registers only white lights, as if it had gone dead. Sometimes changing the equipment helps, sometimes it doesn't. It was like this from the moment it came out of the package. I think it's just possessed.

Re the LP lame...I wonder (and this is a really long shot, but still...) I have that problem when fencing my husband because he's so thin and muscular that hitting his pecs or abs is almost like hitting a chest protector. If he wears a T shirt under his gear, things are ok, but if he's bare under there and wears his tight jacket, then about 15% of my hits just don't go off on him. grr...stupid new timings. Anyway, I wonder if the thin material of the LP vest might be giving just that little bit less cushion and leading to more no-light hits, and maybe the folks who don't have this problem have the advantage of...er....more natural padding and insulation as it were. Just a thought. You could try wearing something thick and squishy under your jacket for a match and see if the problem persists.

[fatfencer]

and several others in the SoCal area wear a slick, thin 350 newton jacket and a hardened chest protector, presumably Lexan, under their jackets and lames.

Luis in particular has a very open guard and leans forward making the surface very diagonal, very unperpendicular to the blade.

As a person hes a great guy, as a fencer he is tough for me to beat with that thing on.

As proof, his LP oil slick lame has streaks all over it. ALL over.. deep black streaks where touches should have occured.

I wonder what would happen if my tips had deep file grooves to help make it more grippy against the ultra slippery lame. It's even more slippery than the Triplette one.

Can any armorer tell me if conductivity at the tip would be effected if I scratched up my tips witha file?

FF

[randomsabreur]

Originally Posted by finnfence

We've been having a similar problem with a new Allstar lame of the normal type. No clue what causes it. Sometimes it's fine, and sometimes it registers only white lights, as if it had gone dead. Sometimes changing the equipment helps, sometimes it doesn't. It was like this from the moment it came out of the package. I think it's just possessed.

Re the LP lame...I wonder (and this is a really long shot, but still...) I have that problem when fencing my husband because he's so thin and muscular that hitting his pecs or abs is almost like hitting a chest protector. If he wears a T shirt under his gear, things are ok, but if he's bare under there and wears his tight jacket, then about 15% of my hits just don't go off on him. grr...stupid new timings. Anyway, I wonder if the thin material of the LP vest might be giving just that little bit less cushion and leading to more no-light hits, and maybe the folks who don't have this problem have the advantage of...er....more natural padding and insulation as it were. Just a thought. You could try wearing something thick and squishy under your jacket for a match and see if the problem persists.

Re the intermittent white light - look at the wire between the bodywire clip and the spool plug.

As for the LP lame - not noticed them being any harder to hit than normal lames, but I'm rubbish at foil anyway. I didn't notice a new timings problem - I still miss!

[Inquartata]

Everyone is aware that the ultralight material lamés should not be washed with any detergent, right? Apparently there are residue issues, at least with the Absolute lamés...maybe LPs are different.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by fatfencer

and several others in the SoCal area wear a slick, thin 350 newton jacket and a hardened chest protector, presumably Lexan, under their jackets and lames.

Luis in particular has a very open guard and leans forward making the surface very diagonal, very unperpendicular to the blade.

As a person hes a great guy, as a fencer he is tough for me to beat with that thing on.

As proof, his LP oil slick lame has streaks all over it. ALL over.. deep black streaks where touches should have occured.

I wonder what would happen if my tips had deep file grooves to help make it more grippy against the ultra slippery lame. It's even more slippery than the Triplette one.

Can any armorer tell me if conductivity at the tip would be effected if I scratched up my tips witha file?

FF

I don't think you can do that.
********************

(f) Pointe d’arrêt
m.11 1. The diameter of the pointe d’arrêt is between 5.5 mm and 7 mm;
the diameter of the body of the barrel including its exterior
insulation must not be more than 0.3 mm less than that of the pointe
d’arrêt.
2. The pointe d’arrêt must be cylindrical; its front surface is flat and
perpendicular to its axis.
Its edge will either be rounded with a radius of 0.5 mm or have a
chamfer of 0.5 mm at 45°.

***************

Sounds like you want a return of the so-called "Pineapple Point".

You might be able to get away with sanding the face of the tip with rough crocus cloth. They don't use the word "smooth" in this rule, I didn't check any others. There is mention that the clothing cannot be too smooth. It is in the general conditions section so should be applicable to Foil as well as Epee. You can bring it up when Dan DeChaine is around, he likes strict application of the rules.

*************

CHAPTER 2. EQUIPMENT AND CLOTHING
1. GENERAL CONDITIONS
m.25
3. Characteristics of the clothing. Fencers’ clothing must be
made of sufficiently robust material and be clean and in
good condition.
The material from which the equipment is made must not
have a surface which is smooth enough to cause the point
or the opponent’s touch to glance off (cf. m.30).
******************

[fatfencer]

May your be showered from on high with rep points!!!

Dan will actually be at Palm Desert this weekend and mayhaps my archnemesis may be there too. An extraordinary alighment of good fortune.

Yes...the force is with me.

Thanks Bill,

Fatfencer

[Alex_Paul]

If the lame's resistance is fine and a slow controlled series of test hits register fine then the problem must be somwhere else in the chain...