the back hand

[samster]

It seems all books, instructors tell you to put your back hand up and behind your head (sort of) with a a loose floppy wrist.

Why?

I find it difficult and distracting. It doesn't help me balance (in fact, I feel like it puts me off balance) and it's just one more thing to keep track of.

Moreover, no one seems to actually assume the "classic" position when they're on the strip.

Is this just pointless tradition? Or am I missing something?

Thanx.
-Sam

[keropie]

Books, perhaps. I dunno, I don't read that many fencing books.

Instructors? No one current. That position had some relevance (from what I understand) in some schools of fencing that used the off hand for defence or offense (secondary weapons, cloaks, whatever), and perhaps for balance/counterbalance with heavier weapons. No one that I'm aware of teaches competitive fencers that way anymore.

So, yeah, old tradition, probably had reasons back when, not so much anymore.

[RITFencing]

one reason for teaching beginners to put it a bit up and back (though not necessarily behind or above the head):

It helps with the position of the back shoulder and the posture of the spine, and makes it much easier to throw the back arm over and back when making a lunge, not to the side, which can affect balance negatively during and after the lunge.

[qatet]

We teach people to keep their back hand up. It helps with balance. It helps (if in the correct position) keep the back shoulder relaxed. It helps keep the student from covering. It helps with power in the lunge.

We're also quite persnickety about the kids keeping their back hand facing palm-up at the end of the lunge, for all of the above reasons and a few more besides.

And, yeah, I'm from a pretty competitive club.

[edew]

And, refs will be calling covering targets more stringently in the future. Keep that back hand up and make it a habit.

[KD5MDK]

Or don't fence foil. I quit fencing over how much trouble I was having with that, and when I came back my coach just looked at me for a little while then gave me a sabre and didn't worry about where my back hand went. I'd have quit again if he didn't, I suspect.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by qatet

It helps with balance... It helps with power in the lunge.

I really doubt either one of these things are true, even though you always hear them as reasons for the "classical" fencing stance. The fact is I dont feel any more balanced with my arm back or at my side. And as far as adding power to the lunge, just stand on guard with your back arm up and throw it back... see how much it pushes you forward. Answer: Not at all.

.

[Lemonaide]

Originally Posted by samster

It seems all books, instructors tell you to put your back hand up and behind your head (sort of) with a a loose floppy wrist.

Why?

I find it difficult and distracting. It doesn't help me balance (in fact, I feel like it puts me off balance) and it's just one more thing to keep track of.

Moreover, no one seems to actually assume the "classic" position when they're on the strip.

Is this just pointless tradition? Or am I missing something?

Thanx.
-Sam

There's different approaches to this. The classical approach is as you describe. Some coaches don't want it too much anymore, but many still want the hand up, at least in the beginning so you can get the feel for it. First it is aerobic and makes the arm strong; it keeps the blood flowing; then next is that its used as a counter weight for your lunge. If you do 50 lunges a day from the classical position, you'll see a difference. While you're actually fencing, your arm will find other levels, it's meant for balance. On the flip side, I had a teacher who wanted his students to keep their hand down almost below the waist. I felt a little uncomfortable, and felt 'it had nowhere to go' while lunging. Then he also had a sort of awkward reverse lungy thing that we did and that's when the kids all rebelled and barfed.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by qatet

We teach people to keep their back hand up. It helps with balance. It helps (if in the correct position) keep the back shoulder relaxed. It helps keep the student from covering. It helps with power in the lunge.

We're also quite persnickety about the kids keeping their back hand facing palm-up at the end of the lunge, for all of the above reasons and a few more besides.

I've never found that the back hand's position helped in the power of a lunge...that comes from the back leg and any forward momentum...something the back hand has nothing t do with.

Throeing the back hand behind you on a lunge, however, CAN add a small bit of distance -- maybe an inch or two -- because it rotates the shoulders. The ILLUSION is that the extra reach is from a more powerful lunge, but this if not an action/reaction deal....throwing your arm back as hard as you can does NOT equate to a significant in crease in the lunge. The palm up or down does nothing for the shoulder rotation...I agree with the balance issue, tho.

KD5MDK -- you still need to worry about where that hand goes...a teammate once got his thumbnail lopped off by a sabre shot when his back hand drifted in front (it was messy). And because the hand is NOT target, you could get called for covering.

[stu]

I found out one reason for it the other night when I got whacked on the off hand. Also, it's the ideal position for giving your oponent a cheerful wave partway through.

[Inquartata]

Meh, all of you folks who think throwing the off hand back imparts no force to the lunge have just repealed Newton's third law of motion. Congratulations! Now if you can just develop a proof, a Nobel prize awaits you, I am sure.

Seriously...try it on ice skates some time.

[finnfence]

One of my coaches - can't recall if it was Sasha Romankov or Michael Petin, said that if you put you back hand up it will tend to tighten up your back shoulder, which will cause various follow-on problems in your fencing. He then put my arm down in the floppy position most everyone uses and told me to leave it there. I experimented with it, and he was right, not only for me, but for almost everyone I've taken through the beginner's course here in Helsinki.

The coach did warn me that even from the floppy position, you probably still should extend your back arm with palm up when lunging if you want to help stay balanced and upright during the lunge, and help keep your back shoulder from rolling forward and messing up your balance. That seems to have checked out in practice, too, especially for people who don't keep their chests up, or who roll their shoulders forward in the typical "weak mid-back muscles/too much work at the computer" posture.

I think the the back hand used to be up and back in old books, whether for reasons of aesthetics, or to keep it from getting sliced, but whatever the reason, it has nothing to do with modern fencing. I know a couple of people who still teach that way here, but these tend to be very traditionally oriented coaches, who also tend to think, for example, that the back foot should not be allowed to move forward along the strip at all during the lunge, but instead should remain nailed in place in its position at the start of the lunge. It doesn't matter if this costs the fencer 30 cm of distance on the attack.

[rocky]

None of the top fencers hold it above their head anymore. All of them leave it fully relaxed by their side, or sort of tucked in at the side with the hand relaxed (Examples of those two types being Le Pechoux and Baldini). However, many of them still do throw it backwards for the reasons mentioned above — it helps your front shoulder during your lunge, balance, etc.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Meh, all of you folks who think throwing the off hand back imparts no force to the lunge have just repealed Newton's third law of motion. Congratulations! Now if you can just develop a proof, a Nobel prize awaits you, I am sure.

No one is disputing Newtons laws of motion, just how much additional momentum your arm (actually half of it) will impart in relation to the rest of your body moving forward. The arms weight is pretty trivial in this relation (to the rest of the body), which means the amount of momentum imparted for the brief time you are throwing it back is also trivial. Besides, even if you are really concerned about gaining that extra 1% momentum, you can just as well throw your arm back from any other position and not just the goofy classical one.

The main reason to extend your back arm when you lunge is to stabilize yourself as the lunge finishes and help balance the extended front arm... which is why most fencers do it. The classical fencing stance doesnt help at all, which is why most fencers DONT do it.

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Seriously...try it on ice skates some time.

You must have this confused with a different sports discussion forum.

.

[Joe biebel]

Originally Posted by rocky

None of the top fencers hold it above their head anymore. All of them leave it fully relaxed by their side, or sort of tucked in at the side with the hand relaxed (Examples of those two types being Le Pechoux and Baldini). However, many of them still do throw it backwards for the reasons mentioned above — it helps your front shoulder during your lunge, balance, etc.

Just think how good they could be if they did it right

[samster]

Thanks everyone. Nice to get different points of view.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by keropie

Instructors? No one current.

I dunno, I consider myself current.

I think it helps for balance, helps keep from covering target, helps keep the fencer from leaning and twisting forward in the lunge, and throwing the hand back in the lunge (which I agree can also be done from other hand positions) assist by leaving some mass behind.

That said, I don't obsess about it. My own hand, while held back, tends to sag to a relaxed position at about middle height, not the "scorpion sting" of yore. I tell my students to keep the hand up "-ish", back, and relaxed, not to swing it around at their hips. It helps.

[jeff]

I think it more important to pay more attention to the position of the hand holding the weapon....

(I do hold my rear hand up, and open it palm up on lunge. That's what I was taught and I'm very accustomed to it, and I think it useful for balance and for keeping reduced target profile. But it's not something to obsess over)

[keropie]

I suppose I should mildly moderate my earlier position: I know of no one teaching the 'scorpion sting' position, but I do know of some people who teach a position somewhere around the waist, and somewhere near(ish) the height of the back shoulder. And many more who teach floppy.

[crquack]

The main reason to extend your back arm when you lunge is to stabilize yourself as the lunge finishes and help balance the extended front arm... which is why most fencers do it. The classical fencing stance doesnt help at all, which is why most fencers DONT do it.

1) It seems to matter *how* you extend the arm. One coach showed me how if you let the back arm extend in a downward direction your point tends to rise during a lunge. He was big on keeping the extended arm level.
2) I have seen somewhere research showing that the lunge was 23% faster if one uses the hand in the classical manner than if one does not. Unfortunately I cannot find that reference any more.
3)For me, I find that the *flexing* of the extended arm helps in recovery from a lunge. But that may be subjective...