the back hand

[GuyW]

Originally Posted by erik_blank

To add to this thread of historical origin. Most duelists at that time would carry a dagger in th off hand or use either cloak or scabbard in that hand to provide additional defensive options. Most of the stances actually have the fencer starting out with the off hand/shoulder closer to the opponent than the weapon hand so that the extra defensive options of the dagger/cloak/scabbard could be employed and the motion of the rapier could be hidden prior to the ultimate thrust/cut (yes, the rapier WAS used to cut, just not to hack. The action was that of a 'draw cut' and was used to weaken the opponent prior to being able to actually give the coup de grace with either the main gauche (dagger) or the rapier.) All in all a rather bloody affair, and not one that I would actually want to take part in.
I have not seen many histroical texts describing or illustrating saber from that period, but I could see someone with an off hand parrying device for this as well, but I feel that it would be impractical considering the type of attack employed by this weapon.

I'm a neophyte. But I have read (and accepted as accurate for now) anecdotes about rapier duels where the 2 antangonists were mutually impaled and at a standoff - absent a dagger or second short sword to conclude the contest.

As a "traditionalist" in most areas of my life, I'm going with the classical epee hand location....as tho wielding a second weapon...

[needle]

Originally Posted by GuyW

I'm a neophyte. But I have read (and accepted as accurate for now) anecdotes about rapier duels where the 2 antangonists were mutually impaled and at a standoff - absent a dagger or second short sword to conclude the contest.

As a "traditionalist" in most areas of my life, I'm going with the classical epee hand location....as tho wielding a second weapon...

Here we go again. Firstly, why do you think the practice of using a secondary weapon (main gauche, parrying dagger, buckler, cloak, case, etc) has been abandoned long before fencing stopped being a martial art and became just a sport?

And secondly, as a "traditionalist", look at any drawing from old rapier books (Agrippa, Cappo Ferro) and notice that most positions there have very little in common with what you call a "classical epee hand location".

Position of the off-hand behind the head is not for second weapon, that's a myth.
It was believed that this position helps keep the shoulders aligned to allow maximum extension, and that throwing the off-hand back while lunging helps provide extra momentum to either extend the lunge, or increase speed. If you look at any modern high level competition, you'll notice that very few people share this belief nowadays.

[seven6ty]

So does anyone have a specific, technical reason for keeping their rear arm limply at their side all of the time? All I've heard so far, amounts to "It's cool because everyone else does it". Anybody got a better reason than this?

[OROD]

Originally Posted by seven6ty

So does anyone have a specific, technical reason for keeping their rear arm limply at their side all of the time?

I dont know about you, but when I'm fencing my "rear" arm is not limp. If it was, then it'd be hitting me all over the place as I move back and forth.

As to why I keep my non-weapon arm at my side... well, it's because that's where it's attached. Not planning to change that any time soon.

.

[jkdjeff]

I'm going to experiment some with the classical "scorpion tail" rear hand positioning, mostly because my background leads me to tend to want to "hunch" my shoulders inward and bring my rear arm into a position where it's covering target.

I don't care if people think it looks silly, as long as it works.

[piste off]

Originally Posted by seven6ty

So does anyone have a specific, technical reason for keeping their rear arm limply at their side all of the time? All I've heard so far, amounts to "It's cool because everyone else does it". Anybody got a better reason than this?

According to my coach it promotes less tension in the shoulders and allows for a more flexible/quicker arm.

Rick

[HDG]

Originally Posted by piste off

According to my coach it promotes less tension in the shoulders and allows for a more flexible/quicker arm.

Rick

Sounds about right to me.

[Rock]

The original reason for keeping the rear arm in the air in a skill contest with swords was to show the judges that one was not using the unarmed hand to parry or to cover the target. [Refer to older classically trained French masters, and the translation of "The Rules of Toulouse, 1696".].

In any skill contest in which a prize will be awarded to the most skillful contestent, the evaluation criteria of the judges must be communicated to the competitors in advance.

Competitive bronc and bull riding in contemporary rodeos uses the same criteria regarding the "extra" hand. The rider must show clearly that he/she is never using the extra hand.

Just like real sword fighters hundreds of years ago knew that in a fight for your life you could parry with the other hand, kick, spit, eye-gouge, throw bricks, switch sword hands, etc., working cowboys now will do whatever works on the job, and will certainly use both hands if that's what works.

Like rodeo skills vs ranching, our fencing sports isolate specific sword survival skills in a way that allows a comparitive evaluation of those specific skills.

It turns out that -

[Rock]

I was told when I started fencing 41 years ago that fencing was good for ones coordination. Well, I just accidently submitted my last post only half way through, so I'm still waiting for this coordination they told me about to kick in.

I'm still uncoordinated, but I'm much more aware of it now. Thanks, fencing!

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Rock

I was told when I started fencing 41 years ago that fencing was good for ones coordination. Well, I just accidently submitted my last post only half way through, so I'm still waiting for this coordination they told me about to kick in.

I'm still uncoordinated, but I'm much more aware of it now. Thanks, fencing!

My coach keeps telling me to be more coordinated