the back hand

[erik_blank]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I meant people who fence under the rules we do. Dry fencing was an entirely different game.
In sabre, if someone hits your back arm, they're gonna hit you anyway. In any case, no one is saying that you should put your arm somewhere in front of your body, simply that a relaxed position with the hand near the hip is more comfortable. The arm is still behind the body.

Mr Biggs: I think that the biggest problem with this whole thread is the assumption that the 'classical' scorpion tail position has ANYTHING to do with the fine weapon and sport of Saber. While the 'Classical' scorpion tail position (in my old stodgid opinion) does help in many ways in foil and epee, I would never suggest it's use in Saber. It just doesn't apply.
Why? See my previous posts about this, but mostly, the classical saber position had kept the back arm tucked away safely behind the fencer near the hip to protect it from stray attacks. If you wish to question my horrible and atrotious judgment in the use of the classical position in Foil and Epee, please feel free, but let's PLEASE drop all the insistance the the OP wanted to apply this to your more bloodthirsty (and fun) weapon. I just don't think it was ever intended this way.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by erik_blank

Mr Biggs: I think that the biggest problem with this whole thread is the assumption that the 'classical' scorpion tail position has ANYTHING to do with the fine weapon and sport of Saber. While the 'Classical' scorpion tail position (in my old stodgid opinion) does help in many ways in foil and epee, I would never suggest it's use in Saber. It just doesn't apply.
Why? See my previous posts about this, but mostly, the classical saber position had kept the back arm tucked away safely behind the fencer near the hip to protect it from stray attacks. If you wish to question my horrible and atrotious judgment in the use of the classical position in Foil and Epee, please feel free, but let's PLEASE drop all the insistance the the OP wanted to apply this to your more bloodthirsty (and fun) weapon. I just don't think it was ever intended this way.

The poster I was responding to mentioned that the back arm is target in some weapons, so not raising it could allow it to be hit. I was addressing his argument on a weapon-by-weapon basis.

EDIT: Rereading my post, I see that that wasn't clear in the least. That was my intention. The rest of that part of my post should read something like "in foil, it's not target, and in epee, it's not something you're likely to hit if ti's behind the body whether it's high or low."

[erik_blank]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

The poster I was responding to mentioned that the back arm is target in some weapons, so not raising it could allow it to be hit. I was addressing his argument on a weapon-by-weapon basis.

EDIT: Rereading my post, I see that that wasn't clear in the least. That was my intention. The rest of that part of my post should read something like "in foil, it's not target, and in epee, it's not something you're likely to hit if ti's behind the body whether it's high or low."

Hummmm... I think that I need to be re-reading posts also, since the OP really did NOT specify a specific weapon. I just jumped to conclusions that it was Foil or Epee. Sorry MrBiggs!

[Simaraon]

Um, Mr Blank, do you mind if you amend your signature block, coz Bob and Ginny would have been really quite upset about the fact that you misspelled Bob's name as Heinlen, when it is, in fact, Heinlein.

Please amend it. Or someone will not avoid strong drink, and shoot at you, and miss.

S

[Simaraon]

Or worse, not miss.

[erik_blank]

Originally Posted by Simaraon

Or worse, not miss.

DONE! I can't believe that I've been wandering around f.net for so long with this blasphem at the end of my sig....

Thanks for catching this.

Edit: I saved the change, and now all of my posts on this page were updated automagically! Cool!

[Simaraon]

Happy now.
Thanks.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by erik_blank

DONE! I can't believe that I've been wandering around f.net for so long with this blasphem at the end of my sig....

I suggest you update it again, because the master's middle initial was not H.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Goldgar

I suggest you update it again, because the master's middle initial was not H.

Indeed; "A" wasn't it?

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by HDG

Indeed; "A" wasn't it?

Yes. Robert Anson Heinlein.

[OROD]

Rah, Rah, RAH!

.

[jeff]

Originally Posted by Goldgar

Yes. Robert Anson Heinlein.

And he was a fencer, too! Italian foil, mind you - but that's okay, it was a long time ago.

[the ancient one]

Here is a weapon-neutral take on the rear hand-alleged benefits.

Experiment.

Remember that momentum is the product of mass x velocity, so the magnitude of the effect depends a lot on how you "snap" the arm.

Try this: hold a small weight in your back hand, 1 or 2 pounds and do a lunge and recover with as rapid of a rear arm extension as you can muster. On the recovery don't let go of the weight and hit yourself in the head if you are a classical type. Note any differences in acceleration or ease of initiation. High arm, side arm, whatever you like.

Once upon a time I knew a Polish epee fencer (world class) who would strap an wrist/ankle weight on his trailing arm, discreetly tucked under the sleeve-not all the time, but for "special" situations. He said it made all sorts of non-uniform acceleration tricks possible. I have to admit that there was an appreciable change in the motion control possibilities.

I am not convinced that the high arm position is better or worse mechanically than side-armed, but it has come to look a little silly and out of fashion.

[tkexi991]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

The poster I was responding to mentioned that the back arm is target in some weapons, so not raising it could allow it to be hit. I was addressing his argument on a weapon-by-weapon basis.

EDIT: Rereading my post, I see that that wasn't clear in the least. That was my intention. The rest of that part of my post should read something like "in foil, it's not target, and in epee, it's not something you're likely to hit if ti's behind the body whether it's high or low."

In epee, the high back hand is likely to be hit if an opponent's hit or fleche to the back/front shoulder misses.

[MarkoB]

I fence epee with my hand down but seem to be going through a period of giving away annoying double hits when someone misses the main target but, particularly on a fleche, gets the back hand. Maybe I'll start putting it up.

[Miglin]

If I were to place my back hand behind my head in such a manner in high school, my coach would have given me pushups.

[seven6ty]

It certainly does help to practice with your hand up and behind your head. While I don't fence with my trailing arm that way all of the time, I certainly practice my lunges that way, along with pulling it back up into that position. I also usually have it here when beginning, and/or ending my lunges in competition.

If you begin a lunge with your rear arm in a more relaxed pose, when you do lunge and throw your arm back, you are doing it in a horizontal motion. This horizontal motion will tend to rotate your shoulders along the axis of your spine. When your shoulders are rotated along a vertical axis like this, naturally this is going to cause the forward shoulder to counter rotate in the opposite direction, throwing your point off and to the left. (If you are a right hander.) This rotation about the vertical axis is very much undesired.

If you make it a point to raise and lower your rear arm in a straight up and down motion, rather than one going from infront of your chest, towards your back, you won't cause your shoulders to rotate about the vertical axis like this. So it definently does help in keeping your shoulders stable, and thus, keeping your point in line and preventing it from shifting side to side.

[Miglin]

Originally Posted by seven6ty

It certainly does help to practice with your hand up and behind your head. While I don't fence with my trailing arm that way all of the time, I certainly practice my lunges that way, along with pulling it back up into that position. I also usually have it here when beginning, and/or ending my lunges in competition.

If you begin a lunge with your rear arm in a more relaxed pose, when you do lunge and throw your arm back, you are doing it in a horizontal motion. This horizontal motion will tend to rotate your shoulders along the axis of your spine. When your shoulders are rotated along a vertical axis like this, naturally this is going to cause the forward shoulder to counter rotate in the opposite direction, throwing your point off and to the left. (If you are a right hander.) This rotation about the vertical axis is very much undesired.

If you make it a point to raise and lower your rear arm in a straight up and down motion, rather than one going from infront of your chest, towards your back, you won't cause your shoulders to rotate about the vertical axis like this. So it definently does help in keeping your shoulders stable, and thus, keeping your point in line and preventing it from shifting side to side.

No it doesn't.

[seven6ty]

Ahhhh... To be 18 again.

And as everyone has mentioned already, this has no effect on saberists, since we all know they already look atrocious and have the most gawd-awful footwork on the planet, so there is very little that can be done to help them, at this point.

[Miglin]

Originally Posted by seven6ty

Ahhhh... To be 18 again.

And as everyone has mentioned already, this has no effect on saberists, since we all know they already look atrocious and have the most gawd-awful footwork on the planet, so there is very little that can be done to help them, at this point.

I fence epee.