Prime parry

[Carlos37]

Do you use prime(first) parry a lot?When do you normally use it?

[TBean]

When you first learn it you use it ALL the time, its fun to do.

I use it primarily as a tool against the fleche but do use it in other circumstances as well. If I have an opponent that closes distance rapidly it is a parry that I like.

I go through phases with prime - I'm either doing it a lot or hardly at all.

[Tomas N]

It's used for infighting.

Tomas

[lefty_monster]

Originally Posted by Carlos37

Do you use prime(first) parry a lot?When do you normally use it?

If you're relatively new, I wouldn't bother with it just yet. It's a more advanced move. And if you're really short, you might want to stay away from it, also.

Infighting is the first situation that comes to mind. I don't use it alot, mainly because I don't usually work on it so it's an uncomfortable move for me.

[tchwojko]

Originally Posted by Carlos37

Do you use prime(first) parry a lot?When do you normally use it?

I use it when I'm surprised by a quick compression of distance.

Since I'm surprised, I've flubbed the distance and caught flat-footed. Since they're coming at me, the standard 4,6, 7, 8 parries would leave my blade at the wrong angle and most likely pointing over their shoulder. Also, my arm can't bend that way.

So, that leaves parries 1 and 2, depending on which side their blade and body are on. The distance is close, so having my hand up and my point down gives me a shot at the lower half of their body.

If you find that you have many occasions to use a prime or second, then I would suggest that you work on distance first rather than the parries.

Having said that, there was a stretch where I was still learning distance and good footwork, and needed something until that was set straight. I simply spent some time drilling first and second parries as a panic response, as opposed to my previous instinct of cringe-lift-my-bell-to-their-point-close-my-eyes-and-get-hit reponse.

[Fechter1]

Originally Posted by tchwojko

I use it when I'm surprised by a quick compression of distance.

Since I'm surprised, I've flubbed the distance and caught flat-footed. Since they're coming at me, the standard 4,6, 7, 8 parries would leave my blade at the wrong angle and most likely pointing over their shoulder. Also, my arm can't bend that way.

So, that leaves parries 1 and 2, depending on which side their blade and body are on. The distance is close, so having my hand up and my point down gives me a shot at the lower half of their body.

If you find that you have many occasions to use a prime or second, then I would suggest that you work on distance first rather than the parries.

Having said that, there was a stretch where I was still learning distance and good footwork, and needed something until that was set straight. I simply spent some time drilling first and second parries as a panic response, as opposed to my previous instinct of cringe-lift-my-bell-to-their-point-close-my-eyes-and-get-hit reponse.

QFT!

The prime is not very useful as a primary parry from correct distance, due to the blade angles. As T said, if you find yourself using it a lot, then you're either not maintaining proper distance, or you're using it out of distance (it's a close-range parry). If you use primes out of distance, you'll see a lot of fencers and coaches starting to salivate, because they've just found a major hole in your game.

I use prime mainly as a secondary action, if I've missed the primary parry (the famous "oh, sh*t!" parry), or if there is strong blade pressure coming in sixte.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Fechter1

or if there is strong blade pressure coming in sixte.

Yeah, it's nice to use to counter parry a counter six. They basically move your blade for you, all you have to do is drop the point and pronate your hand.

It's handy in situations where you need a large, strong parry and you don't have to worry about what will happen if you remise too slowly. It's actually risky in some infighting situations nowadays because it's easier to hit with reverse shoulders than a prime, depending on how you are situated.

[seak]

As a short person I use Prime a lot when I want to infight, it should not be used at correct distance, however if you want to step in and close distance on the parry it is rather useful and allows for the reposte. To often in current day foil if I keep correct parry distance on someone seriously taller then me I have a very hard time getting the reposte. Of course take all this with a grain of salt, as I'm a mediocre at best foil fencer , but I do like prime for initiating infighting situations.

[jfarmer]

Originally Posted by Fechter1

If you use primes out of distance, you'll see a lot of fencers and coaches starting to salivate, because they've just found a major hole in your game.

There are times that's exactly what I want my opponent to think...

Originally Posted by Fechter1

I use prime mainly as a secondary action, if I've missed the primary parry (the famous "oh, sh*t!" parry), or if there is strong blade pressure coming in sixte.

This is the primary purpose I teach prime. Since it's a large sweeping action it can be used to guard a retreat step when pressed. On the other hand, it's rather difficult to obtain a decent riposte from... Really, I would rather use seconde and teach it, since it will also sweep nearly as large an area, but offers a better chance at the riposte.

John Farmer
Coach, Oak Ridge Fencers Club

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Carlos37

Do you use prime(first) parry a lot?When do you normally use it?

as a yielding parry against an opposite handed fencer attempting an opposition 4 fleche. timing has to be perfect.

[Lemonaide]

I used to fence at least four times a week for about seven years and I never used it more than once. The elbow has to be angled just so, and if not, its easily deflected.

I did learn something else for infighting in foil, but its a while back, but I'll try to describe; when you're caught 'too close' to your opponent, and can't retreat using footwork, draw your fencing arm back,[not up] bringing the elbow backward so that the fencing hand is next to the waist. This allows for room to use the foil to counter while you find a more comfortable position to renew your attack.

[Inquartata]

I've never been able to make myself use it. Seconde on occasion, but never prime. Luckily, it's rarely necessary in sabre.

[D'Art]

Almosr never, unless someone fleches at me and I haven't moved my feet. I prefer to use a raised sixte if possible, mainly because I find it easier to riposte from.

[jeff]

It's nice occasionally, as noted, for infighting or a yielding parry. Okay to use as a surprise or a desperation move to sweep the entire line, and the riposte can be very effective. Still - best to use very sparingly and only with the right distance and timing, since it's so easily deceived if telegraphed. Fun, though...

[tchwojko]

Originally Posted by jeff

Still - best to use very sparingly and only with the right distance and timing, since it's so easily deceived if telegraphed.

I think that's why it's better as a panicked response more than a planned tactic. If you're surprised, you're not likely to telegraph it, nor start it early.

I used to use it occasionally to set up a second intention attack. Provide an easy to evade 1st or 2nd way too early, and then take the blade in 7 or 8. The problem was that it needed decent distance, and if I had that, then there were far easier ways to get the point.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Prime will get most of you killed in epee.

[Welted 24/7]

In sabre, I find it's very occasionally useful as a one-off "what the hell was that" touch. There's very few realistic situations in today's sabre game, if any, where 1 is the most appropriate action to make.

[Phaeton]

Originally Posted by Welted 24/7

In sabre, I find it's very occasionally useful as a one-off "what the hell was that" touch. There's very few realistic situations in today's sabre game, if any, where 1 is the most appropriate action to make.

I completely, as a sabre fencer, agree with you. I can however think of several situations it may work.

A) There is a feignt-attack from head to chest and from parry 5 you go to parry 1 to riposte.

Why:
I am of the belief that in general it is better to lead parries with the blade rather than the guard. It is not only faster and more efficient, but there's less of a chance of a stray blade catching the wrist somewhere. I feel that going from 5->4 leaves an opportunity to finish under the hand. 1 only has to be whipped over while 4 the entire hand moved. Then again if there are two feignts in the compound action and the person is going to finish on the flank one would best be suited to going to a high 2 parry from 1 which may be quite awkward. Then again that's a parry that I use from time to time and like.

B) After a failed stop cut to the hand and the blade is stuck under the hand. The riposte is coming into chest. One takes 1 parry riposte.

Why: On the attempt to parry 4 the blade may get caught on the guard or forced out of the way. Parry 1 is a bit more removed, and while completely contradicting my logic on leading with the blade, is a bit more likely not to have weird complications. This is especially useful if people like to keep their blade in 7 or some other low line and have a hard time coming up to 4. If you can mange to come back up to 4 without getting caught, however, that is far more preferable.

C) Distances is far too close to take a comfortable 4 parry, for example after a flunge.

Why: Prime works better at close distance than a 4 does. That's just the nature of the parry. If you're going to have a 4 parry that isn't forward, and that's very close to your body you'll decrease the chance of remise by parrying prime. This once again is a very rare circumstance.

In the last season I parried prime a total of 10 times (while not specifically working on the action) that I can recall (and I always remember a good prime parry): 3 of which were doing a feignt attack, 2 of which were due to failed attacks under the hand, and 5 of which were due to being at a distance which was too close to comfortably take parry riposte. This 10 times was out of far more than a thousand points, which means I parried prime in less than 1% of the points that I fenced.

I've had multiple lessons on parrying prime from several different coaches, have worked on it combativelyl, and have done it competition. It just isn't all that useful of a skill in sabre. There are a few moments where it may simply be a personal taste issue (such as coming back from line, dropping down from a 5 parry in the chance of a feignt attack). All in all I think it is probably a good thing to know, but probably one of the more useless things one can learn in sabre.

[theLuz]

If you've ever seen Heik fence foil, you've seen a really cool Prime. He even uses it as an attack. After he won the Nationals, everyone was trying to do it. Maybe there are films of it.

[jeff]

theLuz remembers! It was very trendy at that time, and prime got over used by people copying good fencers and getting hit for it...