Dallas start times?

[usafencer]

Does anyone have any insider information regarding the scheduled start times for NAC B? Besides the little pound signs?

[oiuyt]

They won't be decided until after the regular registration deadline on Friday. Look for them at the end of next week.

-B

[sleepyweasle]

SO irritating to those who must by plane tickets...

[KD5MDK]

If you're not taking the advice of "arrive the night before, leave late at night or the morning after", you're likely to get burned despite whatever time is posted.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Whatever the start times are, I think they'll be unfair.

To me.

[KD5MDK]

Does being over 20 (I think) get counted as part of that?
Or are you planning to ref and think an 8am start is unreasonable for any event?

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Does being over 20 (I think) get counted as part of that?
Or are you planning to ref and think an 8am start is unreasonable for any event?

I'm not even going.

[KD5MDK]

I thought that was likely, but couldn't figure a way to explain it being unreasonable that way.

[teacup]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

If you're not taking the advice of "arrive the night before, leave late at night or the morning after", you're likely to get burned despite whatever time is posted.

If there is an early start time, the majority of people will not get "burned" if they fly home that night.

Sure in an ideal world fencers should arrive two or three days early to adjust for jet lag then leave the day after the event but most people do not have the luxury of taking too many days of off work and school and paying for extra hotel rooms especially if the event is the fourth day and everyone is leaving anyway.

And for that one time a flight is missed and arrangements need to be remade, it is worth it due to winning and the hundreds of dollars previously saved in hotel rooms costs and days of missed school and work.

Some people buy service contracts with the belief that the equipment will break and others take their chances that hopefully when equipment breaks it will be available newer, better and cheaper anyway.

Bottom line, close of registration should be six weeks or more earlier so close of check in can be posted earlier.

[KD5MDK]

If the close of registration is 10am or earlier (# sign) you can fly home that night, yes. If it isn't, and especially when you consider the risk of events being flighted, delayed for other reasons, etc, I'd hesitate before taking a flight before 7pm or so.

[journalmom]

I flew red eye for the first time from Tucson after the event on Sunday. The start time was 8AM - bad getting up in the morning but finished by 6 PM. So, we had a leisurely dinner and took a cab to the airport early and slept like a baby on the plane. It was great that Monday was a holiday though - couldn't have gone to work or school after flying Red Eye.

All in all, it wasn't bad flying out on the same day of the event since it started early.

Arriving late the night before (the only flight I could take without taking the kids out of school) and starting early was not good. He did horribly and arriving late the night before didn't help.

I made the travel arrangements blindly before the start times were out. Didn't know that he'd be fencing early the next morning.

So, the moral of the story is....knowing the start times early on so that we can make travel arrangements would be helpful. Do Juniors and Cadet always start early??? I wonder.

Also, why don't they put Cadet event on Sunday instead of Friday so that the kids can fence without missing school???

[KD5MDK]

I would hope that events with repechage are generally scheduled early.

[Redblade]

Originally Posted by sleepyweasle

SO irritating to those who must by plane tickets...

Having the individual event dates posted so far in advance is still a HUGE improvement over previous years. ... And, yes, as others have said, arrive the night before and plan to leave the night at the end of your event or the next morning. That's actually not so unreasonable.

[teacup]

Originally Posted by journalmom

I flew red eye for the first time from Tucson after the event on Sunday. The start time was 8AM - bad getting up in the morning but finished by 6 PM. So, we had a leisurely dinner and took a cab to the airport early and slept like a baby on the plane. It was great that Monday was a holiday though - couldn't have gone to work or school after flying Red Eye.

You are lucky, Columbus Day is only a holiday for some parts of the country and of course it is Canadian Thanksgiving.

Just as in November, Remembrance Day and Veteran's Day are not a holiday for everyone. Other NAC's aren't held over long weekends.

Originally Posted by journalmom

Arriving late the night before (the only flight I could take without taking the kids out of school) and starting early was not good. He did horribly and arriving late the night before didn't help.

This is the norm for those travelling from the Pacific Time Zone to the East. Five hour flight plus three hour time change equals at least an eight hour travel time if you can fly direct, if not at add couple of hours. If an event is on Friday then two days of school/work are missed. Even taking a 9:00 AM flight means arriving at the hotel late, almost always missing mask check and usually no food at the hotel.

Heh, we get to look forward to three Eastern time zone NAC's in a row this year but that is the reality of fencing competitions.

Originally Posted by journalmom

I made the travel arrangements blindly before the start times were out. Didn't know that he'd be fencing early the next morning.

I blindly booked to Tucson in May so I could use my free tickets. I lucked out and guessed right. Otherwise the best is to fly somewhere with Southwest so you can buy tickets for the night of the event and the next morning then use the credit for the unused portion in the future.

Originally Posted by journalmom

So, the moral of the story is....knowing the start times early on so that we can make travel arrangements would be helpful. Do Juniors and Cadet always start early??? I wonder.

Yes, the earlier start times are known the better. Junior and Cadet Men's Epee always starts at 8:00 AM but that is the only one that is reliable. Yes, this is an improvement from the past.

Originally Posted by journalmom

Also, why don't they put Cadet event on Sunday instead of Friday so that the kids can fence without missing school???

How much work or school students and fencers miss, I believe, is not a consideration when the tournament committee plans National events. If your children are going to fence competitively they will miss school. Last year I did a chart and Cadet Men's Epee and Cadet Women's Foil missed the most days of school. (Meaning they had the most junior and cadet events scheduled on Fridays and Mondays, also Women's Foil is even worse because their start times are a wild card, so people may have to fly home Tuesday morning.)

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by teacup

How much work or school students and fencers miss, I believe, is not a consideration when the tournament committee plans National events.

Of course it is.

One of the desiderata is to prefer events to be on weekend days rather than weekday days. Look at Tucson. 18 events, 10 on Sat/Sun, 8 on Fri/Mon. That's typical.

-B

[teacup]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Of course it is.

One of the desiderata is to prefer events to be on weekend days rather than weekday days. Look at Tucson. 18 events, 10 on Sat/Sun, 8 on Fri/Mon. That's typical.

-B

Yes, it is probably one of their many considerations but not necessarily one of the main deciding factors to the overall scheduling of National events.

I am sure they do try to put the Cadet/Jr events on Sat/Sun but do they figure out whether any one group gets more events scheduled on Fridays/Mondays vs Sat/Sundays? For this season, Women's Foil, although they only have two instead of three events on Fridays and Mondays, both are on a Friday and WF start times are inconsistent, so I am sure it is hard for them to buy air.

Scheduling is hard and they are volunteers. Nothing is going to be perfect.

My point is that if a student wants to be a competitive fencer they are going to have to miss school, especially if close of check in times are not announced until two or three weeks before the event.

For this season the following cadet and junior events are scheduled on Fridays and Mondays.

ME, 2 Jr
MF, 1 Cdt, 2 Jr
MS, 2 Cdt, 1 Jr.
WE, 1 Cdt, 2 Jr
WF, 2 Cdt
WS, I Cdt, 1 Jr.

Add on to that the travel day before and possibly an extra travel day home and this is why people, although ill advised to, try to travel home the day of the event and kids miss school.

Here's something interesting; probably the best combination for a family with two fencers, to miss the least amount of school would be to have a male epee and a female sabre fencer. These two events seem to be scheduled opposite other most often. Perhaps because the men's epee is huge and takes awhile and the women's sabre is smaller and faster. The worst is to have two children of opposite sexes fencing the same weapon. Then you will probably have to be there the whole time especially if you don't want your kids flying to and from by themselves.

I wonder if single weapon national tournaments are under discussion by the tournament task force committee.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by teacup

Yes, it is probably one of their many considerations but not necessarily one of the main deciding factors to the overall scheduling of National events.

I am sure they do try to put the Cadet/Jr events on Sat/Sun but do they figure out whether any one group gets more events scheduled on Fridays/Mondays vs Sat/Sundays? For this season, Women's Foil, although they only have two instead of three events on Fridays and Mondays, both are on a Friday and WF start times are inconsistent, so I am sure it is hard for them to buy air.

Scheduling is hard and they are volunteers. Nothing is going to be perfect.

My point is that if a student wants to be a competitive fencer they are going to have to miss school, especially if close of check in times are not announced until two or three weeks before the event.

For this season the following cadet and junior events are scheduled on Fridays and Mondays.

ME, 2 Jr
MF, 1 Cdt, 2 Jr
MS, 2 Cdt, 1 Jr.
WE, 1 Cdt, 2 Jr
WF, 2 Cdt
WS, I Cdt, 1 Jr.

Add on to that the travel day before and possibly an extra travel day home and this is why people, although ill advised to, try to travel home the day of the event and kids miss school.

Here's something interesting; probably the best combination for a family with two fencers, to miss the least amount of school would be to have a male epee and a female sabre fencer. These two events seem to be scheduled opposite other most often. Perhaps because the men's epee is huge and takes awhile and the women's sabre is smaller and faster. The worst is to have two children of opposite sexes fencing the same weapon. Then you will probably have to be there the whole time especially if you don't want your kids flying to and from by themselves.

I wonder if single weapon national tournaments are under discussion by the tournament task force committee.

While I don't know where my list of the desiderata is currently (and it might be slightly out of date at this point), I seem to recall that being one of the a dozen or so top-tier criteria.

Note that this is far from a trivia problem.

Changing the schedule around to try to balance between the weapons is one of the desiderata as well.

Having the two genders of a weapon on different days will almost always happen as it also allows for referee balancing (despite the situation in Tucson where both cadet foil events were on Friday -- something that caused significant problems with having enough officials available for both, which demonstrates WHY this is an important consideration).

Single-weapon NACs is/was one of the ideas examined by the National Tournament Task Force (as evidenced by an opinion paper on the topic when that set came out a year and a half ago). I suspect that this idea will continue to remain on the table, although my best guess is that we won't move in that direction any time soon.

-B

[teacup]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Having the two genders of a weapon on different days will almost always happen as it also allows for referee balancing (despite the situation in Tucson where both cadet foil events were on Friday -- something that caused significant problems with having enough officials available for both, which demonstrates WHY this is an important consideration).
-B

Isn't it helpful for refs not to have to switch between weapons? Doesn't this factor perhaps balance out other factors?

Maybe more refs for one particular weapon would be available if they didn't have to be there over four days? Has this theory been considered?

Close of check in for Dallas has been posted.

[teacup]

For this particular NAC, a Men's Foil fencer born in 1993 fencing all three events will have to miss the most days of school. Some of them missing school Thursday, Monday and Tuesday. They can take the chance and try to fly home Monday night but with a close of check in of 12:30 and start time maybe 1:30 or 2:00, it will be tough. At least there is no repachage for Y14.

Women's Epee is the next worse but at least their close of check in on Monday is 8:00.

All of the other sexes/weapons are three in a row without a day off.

Maybe it is a top tier consideration of the tournament committee but if missing school/work was one of the higher considerations then the Junior, Cadet and Y14 men's foil would not have a day of rest in the middle especially with Jr MF starting early and Y14 men's foil starting so late. The same with women's epee. Certain groups do end up missing more school/work than others.

It would also be helpful if tournament start times, not close of check in but actual start times, were announced earlier but that is total wishful thinking.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by teacup